Wall Street Protests

[DanaC]

Well fucking said Sam.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

"Going Galt", from Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Where the rich people run away and form their own society to teach the poor people a lesson.

That wouldn't work out well for rich people. Who would make the products or provide the services for them to sell? Who would make the products or provide the services they need to use? Who would buy the products or service they have for sale?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Enough with the references to Ayn Rand's hyperbole. I think American tax payers should have shut off the lights at AIG, Bank of AMERICA, etc., etc., etc., etc. long ago.

Agreed.

You wanna know who John Galt is? I'll tell you. He is a businessman whose soul is filled with greed and believes that neither ordinary human morality or basic business ethics apply to him. He was given a golden parachute by his board of directors for running his enterprise into such terrible debt, that only the government he pretends to despise had the resources to save his sorry ass. He is every CEO who helped manifest the banking and financial institution crises. And he has yet to take responsibility for his actions. Not a one of these corporate felons modeled after Rand's favorite criminal have yet to go to trial.

Bullfuckingshit.. he is the engine that drives the economy and without you would be destitute. And when "he" quits, you are more fucked than you think you are....

Without the worker/tax payer bailouts, most of your favorite corrupt institutions would be here no longer.

And without the engine of those willing to sacrifice and put up the capitol there would be no jobs, so you fail again....

Its as if I were to set up Robin Hood as the be all and end all of wise economic policy. The character of John Galt is attractive to 17 yrar olds who know nothing of economics and business and to adults who wish to live in the Land of Oz. (and I don't mean Australia)

Cool... How did that work out for you bleeding hearts in the last election?

[classicman]

He may be the engine, but that engine won't run without fuel either. We are mutually linked. There cannot be one without the other in a functional situation. Currently this engine is burning WAY TOO MUCH fuel.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by classicman

He may be the engine, but that engine won't run without fuel either. We are mutually linked. There cannot be one without the other in a functional situation. Currently this engine is burning WAY TOO MUCH fuel.

Beautifully put, Classic.

[ZenGum]

To take that analogy, there are leaks in the fuel line, and a lot of the fuel isn't even getting inside the engine.

Quite a lot of business - even financial business - is of net benefit to society at large. Only a tiny number of the people protesting here want to shut it all down.

A significant portion of business, especially international finance, is not of net benefit to society as a whole, but rather imposes a cost on society, in order to enrich the few involved in the deal. This is the bad sort of capitalism. These are the leaks. This is what people want stopped.

I doubt anyone thinks that distinguishing the two will be easy, or that setting rules that allow the first and limit the latter will be easy, but that is no excuse to not make a start. Instead, what we see is these parasitic wealthy effectively buying control of government and skewing things even more in their own favour.

[DanaC]

A recent study showed that 98% of FTSE 100 companies have off-shore subsidiaries based in tax havens.

Perfectly legal of course, but it kind of sticks in the craw when many of the banks that the public bailed out (and indeed in at least one case currently have part ownership of) are included in that list.

So, they broke the economy and were too big to fail, so we gave them barrel loads of cash and they take their profits and run, paying as little as possible back into the country who allowed them to make that profit, and even helped pay for it.

[ZenGum]

Here is an expert explaining it much better than me:

The US Banking Act of 1933, commonly called Glass-Steagall, enforced the separation of investment banking (the issuing of securities) and commercial banking (accepting deposits and making loans).

It was repealed after Citibank, in flagrant contravention of the act, announced the acquisition of the investment banking giant, Salomon Smith Barney, in 1998.

Alan Greenspan, then chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, colluded with the president of Citibank, Sandy Weill, by using an obscure provision of the Bank Holding Company Act that allowed the merger to go through temporarily - with two years grace to divest the investment bank operations.

Greenspan then pressured Congress throughout 1999 to repeal the Glass-Steagall provisions, which it eventually did in November that year with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act - a law that led directly to the global financial crisis of 2008.

Banks were able to use the privilege given to them to "issue currency", as Jefferson put it, by leveraging their capital far more than any other company - 92 cents of every dollar deposited with a bank can be lent out as fresh money to someone else, thus creating money out of thin air.

After November 1999 the newly-freed banks went berserk, leveraging their capital far more the normal 12.5 to one by using financial engineering and by trading derivatives to increase profits and create huge bonuses for the executives, who rapidly became a kind of plutocracy, controlling vast wealth and running the country.

As we know, they got into trouble and had to be bailed out by US taxpayers.

And now the politicians in Europe at least are trying, feebly, to get back some of the control that was lost. In the US they're not really even trying: cheque after cheque has simply been written to the banks; first TARP, then QEs 1 and 2. The money went straight to executive bonuses - they didn't even bother hiding it.

Now the people themselves are rising up against the plutocracy, with protestors filling Wall Street.

SNIP

Alan Kohler is the Editor in Chief of Business Spectator and Eureka Report, as well as host of Inside Business and finance presenter on ABC News.

The whole article is worth a read. It also discusses Europe and mentions Australia.

[Trilby]

Wasn't Alan Greenspan an original member of the Collective?

[Lamplighter]

Thanks Zen, that is a great link
Can't say I understood all first part about Europe, but the part on the US made sense.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Thanks Zen, that is a great link
Can't say I understood all first part about Europe, but the part on the US made sense.

Understand the underlying concept. Some industries can prosper with less regulation. Finance is not one of them. We created all these problems by deregulating the finance industry. That industry can never have enough regulations. In part, because the industry believes profits - not the product - are the only purpose of a business. Because the finance industry and the mafia share a common belief.

I routinely ask bankers about Glass-Stegall. Not one knew what it was. What it did was address a fundamental problem when commercial banking and investment banking is in one house. They learned that the hard way in the 1920s. Due to so much education only from soundbytes, we must now learn that all over again.

BTW, I do not see why what applies to Europe is any different then what applies to America. Had you been following what was posted before George Jr administration all but created this recession, then you knew about Basil I. And why George Jr, et al were doing everything possible to keep it out of America. Basil I and II would have sharply blunted a financial crisis and that absolute resulting need for TARP.

Also not mentioned is what should be standard in all financial industries. All contracts should be traded on open markets. No most secret SIVs and CDOs. Transparency is critical to a responsible economic system. All those secret back room deals are whey Greece could pile on debt without anyone knowing how bad it was going back to the 2000 Olympics. Bankers don't like transparency. Then they cannot skirt the law.

Long Term Capital Management was another example of secret money games to enrich the rich. That also cost many Cellar Dwellers their jobs. Anyone concerned about their decreasing standard of living would know why LTCM simply warned of what was coming. And what happens when the elitists, using a propaganda machine, keep us all ignorant of what almost happened. Propaganda machines including those from Berlusconi of Italy and Murdoch.

But again, we cannot ever over regulate the finance industry. Due to an embedded concept routinely taught in business schools. That a business only exists for its profit. Also called corruption. Basil x (which every adult should have known about) requires transparency and reserves greater reserves behind questionable transactions. Everyone should have known why the Basil regulations are so important to the economic welfare of common Americans (at the expense of the uber-rich).

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Bullfuckingshit.. he [John Galt] is the engine that drives the economy and without you would be destitute. And when "he" quits, you are more fucked than you think you are....

If his company is one out of the 7 or 8 which paid no taxes last year; if his company is one of the ones that held out it hand for bail-out and other funds from the government; it his company is one of the ones that outsourced its jobs overseas - in other words the typical American company, we're all better off without him.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And without the engine of those willing to sacrifice and put up the capitol there would be no jobs, so you fail again....

I have no problem with individuals or investors' legitimately raising capitol. That means no government handouts and no sweet deals with banks which then cause the bank to collapse.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Cool... How did that work out for you bleeding hearts in the last election?

I was not aware that Mr. Hood ran in the last election. Besides, I was using him as an example of going to far to the left which doesn't work either.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Wasn't Alan Greenspan an original member of the Collective?

That Rand's little group of acolytes? Yes, he was.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That Rand's little group of acolytes? Yes, he was.

thought so.

Ayn Rand - no God other than She!

Fucked philosophy. Totally fucked. I hope she's burning in hell. Well, at least a little part of her, anyway.

[classicman]

They've even spread as far out as ...