The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Philosophy

Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-04-2004, 01:22 PM   #106
Lady Sidhe
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it....
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hammond, La.
Posts: 978
Quote:
Originally posted by jinx


Oh, oh, I have one. How about if one innocent person is executed, then you'll agree to be executed too, to make it all better! Life for a life thing, you know?
Oh, I am SO sick of this "innocent person being executed" argument. Anti-death penalty folks always fall back on that argument, much the same as they've accused us of falling back on the "an executed murderer will never kill again" argument.

What with the appeals process, DNA testing, and the like, PROVEN murderers rarely get executed.


Sidhe
__________________
My free will...I never leave home without it.
--House



Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
-Rita Rudner

Lady Sidhe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 01:39 PM   #107
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,575
Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
What with the appeals process, DNA testing, and the like, PROVEN murderers rarely get executed.
Isn't that something you want to change?

The execution of innocents isn't something to "fall back on". It is the most immediate and practical problem with the death penalty. Arguing the fundamental morality of the death penalty can be interesting, but it is moot while innocents are on death row.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 01:42 PM   #108
elSicomoro
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 12,486
Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Oh, I am SO sick of this "innocent person being executed" argument. Anti-death penalty folks always fall back on that argument, much the same as they've accused us of falling back on the "an executed murderer will never kill again" argument.
Ah, so us anti-dp folks ALWAYS do this, but when it comes to the pro-dp folks, it's just an accusation...interesting.

I enjoy debating a topic such as this, but when you blur the boundaries between opinion and fact then smear the opposition on top of it without provocation, a debate ceases being a debate. It becomes a shit-throwing festival.
elSicomoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 01:45 PM   #109
Beestie
-◊|≡·∙■·∙≡|◊-
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Parts unknown.
Posts: 4,081
Quote:
Oh, I am SO sick of this "innocent person being executed" argument.
Unless, of course, its you. I mean, seriously, if it IS you then won't you be glad we are here - fighting for your right? Or would you still just want us to wish away the anomolies in the interest of vanquishing the grey area between the end points. Do you really want to become one with the moss just to prove your point?
__________________
Beestie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 01:48 PM   #110
Lady Sidhe
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it....
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hammond, La.
Posts: 978
Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore


Ah, so us anti-dp folks ALWAYS do this, but when it comes to the pro-dp folks, it's just an accusation...interesting.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. What I'm saying is that the antis' basic argument is that an innocent person might be executed; the pros' basic argument is that an executed murderer will never kill again. Where's the shit-throwing?



Sidhe
__________________
My free will...I never leave home without it.
--House



Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
-Rita Rudner

Lady Sidhe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 01:52 PM   #111
Lady Sidhe
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it....
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hammond, La.
Posts: 978
Quote:
Originally posted by Beestie
Unless, of course, its you. I mean, seriously, if it IS you then won't you be glad we are here - fighting for your right? Or would you still just want us to wish away the anomolies in the interest of vanquishing the grey area between the end points. Do you really want to become one with the moss just to prove your point?

My life is so unbelievably boring that if ever I were accused of murder, I think I'd die of a heart attack before I got to trial.

Seriously...if OJ can't get convicted when there is ungodly amounts of DNA evidence to prove his guilt, then I think little carless ol' me won't have a problem. What are they gonna say I did? WALKED to the crime scene, killed someone just for shits and giggles, then walked home? I'm WAAAY too lazy to put forth that much effort, and I've got a busload of people who will testify to that (right, TS?) If that doesn't work, I'll just say they're attacking me because I'm a Native American female. I'm sure somebody'll jump on the race and gender bandwagon. They always do.

Besides, one has a choice between a jury trial and a bench trial. You think I'd be stupid enough to put my fate in the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?


Sidhe
__________________
My free will...I never leave home without it.
--House



Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
-Rita Rudner

Lady Sidhe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 02:02 PM   #112
Lady Sidhe
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it....
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hammond, La.
Posts: 978
Quote:
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Isn't that something you want to change?

The execution of innocents isn't something to "fall back on". It is the most immediate and practical problem with the death penalty. Arguing the fundamental morality of the death penalty can be interesting, but it is moot while innocents are on death row.
Of course I'd like to see it changed. I don't want innocent people to die any more than you do. But if we KNOW someone is guilty, I say FRY 'EM.

If people are so concerned with the idea that innocent people may be executed, then why don't they start a fund to do DNA testing on these people (or whatever they think will clear them)? DO something about it, and then we can execute the ones who AREN'T innocent.

Besides, unless you have an eyewitness to the murder, there's NEVER going to be a 100% certainty. You can't ask for 100%, because we don't have the technology to facilitate that...yet.

Like those kids in England. They're guilty. Everyone knows they're guilty. Charles Manson is guilty, and everyone knows it (for those who say that he never actually killed someone, the law says that if you hire a killer, or otherwise cause a person to be killed, that you are guilty of murder as well). If we know the individual(s) is/are guilty, where's the problem?


Sidhe
__________________
My free will...I never leave home without it.
--House



Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
-Rita Rudner


Last edited by Lady Sidhe; 05-04-2004 at 02:04 PM.
Lady Sidhe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 02:26 PM   #113
Lady Sidhe
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it....
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hammond, La.
Posts: 978
Here's a little info I found:


This year, Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT), and Rep. William Delahunt (D-MA), introduced the "Innocence Protection Act" (H.R. 912 and S. 486), a bill that would provide new safeguards in capital cases. 234 Representatives, and 25 Senators have cosponsored the House and Senate Bills respectively.

For more info on this, here's a website:
http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/legi...A?OpenDocument


Here are some stats on race, as of Jan 01, 2002:

Race--Number--Percent

White-- 1,701 -- 46.71%

Black -- 1,562 -- 42.77%

Hispanic-- 312 -- 8.54%

Native American -- 45 -- 1.23%

Asian -- 32 -- 0.88%


The average time between sentencing and execution is 9 & 1/2 years.



Sidhe
__________________
My free will...I never leave home without it.
--House



Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.
-Rita Rudner

Lady Sidhe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 02:30 PM   #114
ladysycamore
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In Sycamore's boxers
Posts: 1,341
Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
The public is told that mentally disturbed people aren't dangerous. That was the same drivel they fed us in training for the psychiatric ward. BULLSHIT. If you've got a schizophrenic who refuses to take his meds, odds are you're going to feel the impact of his psychosis sooner or later. The fact is, some of them ARE dangerous, and if they commit a violent crime, they should pay for it. If they refuse meds, they're refusing to control the illness, and thus have a built-in excuse for any dangerous acts they commit. In the psych ward, we had several patients who refused meds. We had to watch our backs constantly if we wanted to walk off our shift under our own power.
Andrea Yates anyone? Wasn't it told that she was a paranoid schizophrenic when she was a teenager or something?

Wolf said:
(There are two kinds of justice: Regular or Extra Crispy)

Precisely.

LS:
If we know the individual(s) is/are guilty, where's the problem?

Hell, I don't see any. Let the executions begin.
__________________
"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~

"The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It"
ladysycamore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 02:53 PM   #115
ladysycamore
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In Sycamore's boxers
Posts: 1,341
Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
I resent the fact that law-abiding and innocent people have to lock their doors and bar their windows and can't walk the streets after dark. I resent the fact that children are being abused to death, raped, and/or murdered, and the person who did it gets cable, medical, dental, clothing, food, and a roof over his head for the rest of his life.
AND would get a transplant sooner than I would!

Quote:
The victim, most people forget, IS innocent. No maybe about it. The victim's family and friends are innocent. What about them? If a criminal is found guilty, and I think DNA should be mandatory, then eliminate him. Society is more important than one who preys on society.

I sincerely believe that there are those who are such a danger to society that they deserve to be eliminated. I resent having to pay their bills. What's the point of warehousing them if we're not going to use them? Give them a choice: Death or the Lab. Either way they pay society back, rather than just getting a free ride.



Sidhe

Can't really disagree with any of that. I'm just the revengeful type. God forbid someone did harm to Syc, his family or my family, and was 100% guilty (meaning there was NO room for error, misjudgments, etc.).
__________________
"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~

"The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It"
ladysycamore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 02:57 PM   #116
elSicomoro
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 12,486
If you were savagely murdered, I would not want that person to receive the death penalty.
elSicomoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 03:00 PM   #117
ladysycamore
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In Sycamore's boxers
Posts: 1,341
Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
In addition, even if he DID get the chair, it would not be close to matching up to the suffering and torture he put Steven through. I say we put hundreds of little cuts all over HIS body, and rub salt water and lemon juice into them, and then cut HIS leg off at the knee and let him bleed to death, taunting and humiliating him until he blacked out from blood loss.
Hell fucking yes.

Quote:
THAT is justice. Do unto that fucker as he did to the victim.
__________________
"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~

"The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It"
ladysycamore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 03:14 PM   #118
marichiko
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
I was preaching to whomever you quoted *grins*.

Sidhe
I quoted the Buddha, not Jesus. Making arguments about the contradictions found in the Bible when responding to the words of a Buddhist teaching is the equivalent of arguing about the declension of Latin nouns while taking a class in Swahili.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 03:24 PM   #119
ladysycamore
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In Sycamore's boxers
Posts: 1,341
Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
This is part of the problem--being so worried about whether their mother gave them a dirty look when they were three and thus ruined them for life. What about taking people to task for their actions? What about holding THEM responsible for what they've done, instead of someone or something else? Plenty of people are poor. They aren't criminals. Plenty of people were abused as kids. They don't murder. People who murder have something missing. It's not the parents' fault, and it's not society's fault. It's all them. They make a choice. They should have to pay for that choice.
Well, yes, they should be held accountable, but in many situations, it *is* on the parents to be responsible enough to bring up their children in a safe, stable home, and therefore reduce the *risk* of those children turning to a life of crime.
__________________
"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~

"The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It"
ladysycamore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 03:34 PM   #120
ladysycamore
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In Sycamore's boxers
Posts: 1,341
Quote:
Originally posted by Catwoman
1. The point was made by someone earlier that justice and revenge are not mutually exclusive. Retribution, punishment - call it what you will - its function is the same. It is reflective of an attitude of like-for-like; you hit me and I'll hit you. This is not constructive. It is cyclical and perpetual and does not achieve resolution.
So what then? Just make that person deny their true feelings for the sake of people who don't agree? IMO, feeling revengeful, etc. is part of being human...notice I didn't say that EVERY human has to feel this way, nor will they always act on that feeling, so why not let them have their "moment"? For some, that is quite theraputic (as opposed to keeping al that emotion bottled up inside).


Quote:
3. Does the value of a human life vary according to the individual? Why is it right to take the life of another person, because (*screaming child) 'he did it first' (*screaming child)?? Could YOU push the button on the electric chair?

If someone killed my family, loved ones..damn right I could.


Quote:
Someone's got to do it. Should they die too? It's PERPETUAL it is NEVERENDING you cannot overcome hate and fear with hate and fear. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?
Why is it so difficult to comprehend that some people are going to feel that way..period? Just because YOU wouldn't DARE feel that way, don't say that others don't have the right to do so.


"Your right doesn't make me wrong." (told to me by a very wise man)
__________________
"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~

"The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It"
ladysycamore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.