Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....

[jaguar]

I can't speak for Zurich, I have little business in the German half but certainly in Lusanne it's pretty much unheard of. Incoming migrant populations, particularly from Africa and Eastern Europe have generated some problems in recent years, particularly drug related but compared to most places, it's virtually invisible. There is a very strong social net here, it's slightly different to much of Europe in that instead of a government controlled health network you instead have a legal obligation to have private health insurance which in general works very well. Switzerland has a stupidly high ratio of hospitals to population and a very high quality of medical care.

The drug issue is delt with with a carrot-stick system, prison sentances for posession are short and large comprehensive rehab programs exist, the combinations is effective as any I've seen. Compared to most places the police have a high visibility with regular foot patrols 24/7, there is nowhere here I would feel unsafe.

( PSSST! I don't think they're going to believe us, Jag. Americans think everyone must have a homeless population since the US does. I give up.)

[xoxoxoBruce]

OK, so there is nobody living on the streets because they put them somewhere via their “safety nets”.
We used to do that here but the courts ruled that is not legal. You can’t institutionalize someone against their will, unless they are a danger to someone, because that’s a violation of their constitutional rights. It really doesn’t matter what kind of care you offer most of these people because they won’t take it, of their own free will. Drugs(alcoholism) and mental illness are prevalent and rationality rare.
I suspect that Swiss families can force a family member off the streets, if necessary, whereas here, they can’t. Such is the nature of a system that stresses individual freedom.

[jaguar]

No you're jumping to conclusions. Very few people choose to live on the street and what varios safety nets do is avoid that happening and give people help getting their lives back on track, I fair to see how you inferred that implied forceable institutionalization.

Switzerland has very well enforced civil rights, we have far greater control over our government than pretty much any other major democratic state. To pass a major bill it must go to referendum, we don't simply elect someone, watch what they do and pass judgement, we have to approve every major bill from spending changes to taxation to criminal law, all must pass referendum. Thus here, unlike the US, it is close to impossible to ram though unpopular legislation and hope the electorate forgets in time for the next election.

I second Jag's description of the Swiss democratic process. Switzerland truely is a government of the people. Also just because a person is a schizo who won't take his meds does not mean he has to be on the street. I know a person like that who has never been homeless - just bounces between a group home and the state hospital. He also has a family that tries their best for him, and they don't order him bundled off somewhere for life. There really is not all that much drug and alcohol treatment available here for the low income/homeless. The Salvation Army is it, and they're only around in larger towns.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Alcoholics/addicts don't want to be where they can't do it and any of the mentally ill that are paranoid don't want to be even in overnight shelters, here. This may be because of the quality of the shelters, I don't know.
So somehow the Swiss are convincing these same people to come in to their facilities, without forcing them. I wonder if it's the difference in the facilities, or the social background they come from? I also wonder how immigrants would react to the Swiss system, not having been brought up in Swiss culture?

[jaguar]

Well I know the biggest problem with the drug trade here is african migrants, they simply have no fear of the prison system, compared to where they come from it's a vacation. There is vague stirrings of a deportation system but whether it'll see the light of day is another matter.

[russotto]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Er, just where IS Elsa supposed to travel where Americans are welcomed with open arms?

I never had any trouble in Switzerland, France, Austria, or Germany. Nor Australia or New Zealand, though that was rather longer ago.

You are really jumping to conclusions when you assume Elsa has some unreasoning dislike for the US.

She's traveled to Greece, Turkey, and the USSR and she hasn't traveled to the US because of the US's reputation for violence? That strongly suggests either she has an unreasoning dislike for the US... or has been associating too much with those who do.

[wolf]

Jag, your opinion of americans is based on no direct contact with us in our natural habitat.

We're quite different when we're not behaving as tourists.

Getcher ass over here, boy, and see the US firsthand.

[Clodfobble]

I have always been told (i.e., even before this administration) that all Europeans hate Americans--except Texans. Supposedly they all love Texans. I guess perhaps that's no longer true since it's widely known that Bush is Texan?

[Beestie]

To pick up Wolf's and Clod's point, Jag has never been to the South, either. They'd warm that cold, European heart of his with some down home hospitality, boiled peanuts and ice-cold beer, a good college football tailgate party, a low-country boil, some good bar-B-que, a shot or two of Jack Daniels and last but far from least, a bevy of the South's finest belles.

Jag has no idea how cool Americans can be.

Originally Posted by russotto

I never had any trouble in Switzerland, France, Austria, or Germany. Nor Australia or New Zealand, though that was rather longer ago.



She's traveled to Greece, Turkey, and the USSR and she hasn't traveled to the US because of the US's reputation for violence? That strongly suggests either she has an unreasoning dislike for the US... or has been associating too much with those who do.

Look, Guys, you can't have it both ways. I was asking Jinx where in her opinion the poor woman should go since Jinx wrote off the better part of Europe along with our allies Turkey and Greece as being places where American bashing went on. Elsa DOES not hate Americans, O.K.? At the time she went to slightly more off the beaten path places like Turkey and the USSR, she traveled with her S.O. who now, sadly, has passed on. She's in her late 60's and felt rather hesitant about coming to the US alone, and at the time we had the discussion, I was still working and wouldn't really have had the time to show her around. (Actually, I guess she must be 70 or more now, since she was maybe 65 or so when we talked about it).

Little things like Columbine, Ted Bundy, etc, etc, etc kind of made her a bit apprehensive. They just don't have crime like that in Switzerland. The woman is starting to get up in years and she's lost her best companion. You sure are a mean spirited bunch. It's as if your 65 or 70 year old Grandmother felt a bit apprehensive about traveling to Mexico City alone right after your grandfather had passed on. Would you call her a Mexican hater? Jeez, give me a break!

[jaguar]

Clobfobble, the texans are for the amusment factor, like clowns.
Beestie I'm a diehard city slicker with a perchant for mojitos, I wear frigging birkenstocks for crying out loud, if you see me in the south I'll be arriving by flying pig.
Yet I love traipsing around 3rd world jungles, go figure.
I would like to visit the US but it's not an option until they stop treating visitors from friendly countries like convicted criminals. I probably already have some sort of file somewhere, if they want to add verified photo ID and fingerprints there's going to have to be a damn good reason.

Well, Jag, you could probably get away with the Birkenstocks in the South. Its the fashion police in Aspen who would be your real worry.

[lumberjim]

sure is smug in this thread