Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....

[Undertoad]

I've just re-read the whole thing and it's a riot! From the original thread-jacking, here are the Top Ten Stupidest Things Said in this Thread. Paraphrased and summarized for your convenience.

10. Catwoman: Americans are hatred/violence/retribution-oriented because they want to torture child molesters.
No, Americans want to torture child molesters because A) they molest children, and B) their own legal system will NOT torture them.

9. Jaguar: Other countries don't prevent immigrants from being successful because they don't pass laws that prevent it.

8. Cyber Wolf: American criminals are tortured by the difficult legal system.

7. Wolf: I own, like, enjoy, carry firearms but I'm not trigger-happy.
I know what you meant and yes it's still funny.

6. Jaguar: I won't visit the US because it treats visitors like criminals by taking a fingerprint.
I prefer the Swiss system, which waits for them to cause trouble and then deports them.

5. Marichiko: We Americans are soooo ignorant of other countries! I take wisdom from my Swiss Aunt... who won't visit the US because it's violent like Columbine.

4. Cyber Wolf: Americans want to torture child molesters, and the media suppresses it.

3. Jaguar: Europeans hate US foreign policy because it's overreaching. Also, there are people in Normandy who would die for the US.
I do hope this one isn't too subtle.

2: Jaguar: Friday: Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here. Monday: I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.

1. Undertoad: My point is I love you man.
True, but probably an evasion

[CzinZumerzet]

? Live Aid Lumberjim, was Saturday July 13th 1985. It was my birthday, and I went with a bunch of English and American friends to the London Wembley end of it on a wonderfully hot day of almost twenty years ago and I find that almost unbelievable. Nineteen years ago tomorrow. When I was nineteen (way back in the late sixties) I had won a travel bursary and went to America. Nobody I knew had ever been to the US and in those days it was a very major event. I worked my way around large parts of the country, making friends who are friends to this day and thrilling with the excitement and sense of disbelief at everything I saw. I was overwhelmed at least once a day! A bit like your Texans in SA, I was something of an innocent abroad LJ. It was the most thrilling time of my life. I adored the US and its people. I remember the warmth and hospitality I found everywhere, people who were total strangers opened their homes to me and showed me around their towns. I recall the enormous pride they had in their nation and how thrilled they were to help me enjoy it as well. I worked in California, Oregon, New york, and travelled through or stayed in at least a dozen other parts of the country. It was the first of several trips to the US and had a profound effect on me.
I later lived my working life in London and so many times I cannot recall, found myself returning the favour to visitors from the US who wanted to see London from the perspective of a very proud native. You would be amazed at the sheer numbers of people who came back, as our guests, and we would go walking together through the french countryside or the scottish highlands. The last big bash was with two families of New York mates and my gang in a huge Greek villa for a month. We rocked believe me!!

Forgive the nostalgic ramblings please, this is what often happens to me around birthdays, but I just wanted selfishly to insert an island of profoundly happy memory in here alongside my thanks for the memories.

[lumberjim]

THANK YOU CZ!

an actual opinion of americans based on real life personal experience. and happy birthday. give your self a big bear hug from me.

[Cyber Wolf]

And that is why you should never use Cliff's Notes!
Ah well, I can only control so much how I come across, especially in a text forum. Cheers, UT!

[jaguar]

UT, sorry, I missed the bit where the US never deports people and there is no system in Switzerland to do so. Who's the idiot? I fail to see how the two points in 3 are mutually exclusive.

If I warp your quotes and take them out of context I'm sure they'd sound amusing too.

[Catwoman]

The trouble with America.

She is truly beautiful. She boasts some of the most outstanding areas of natural beauty in the world. She has produced some of the most intelligent, prosperous and significant people in history.

But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.

The European perception of America could accurately be described as hostile; at best ambivalent. I would like to explain why I think this opinion exists.

Most* people's perception of America is founded on a) media reportage; b) international events and c) Americans they have come into contact with (most likely as tourists). I am sure you will agree this is how most* Americans assimilate an opinion about Britain or any other country.

* I exclude those who have travelled extensively to the country in question.

Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick. It leaves that lasting, bitter taste of style over substance, something that we self-deprecating Brits find hard to digest. Of course, we are influenced by our own media and its portrayal of America. I have to say it is often unashamedly biased, with subversive presenters often using the American stereotype to parody key American figures. You might consider this unfair, but these stereotypes truly are made to fit. Or made to measure, as you might say.

International events speak for themselves. Countless invasions, occupations, wars. Economically, America is the 'big bully' of the international community. 'Price wars' is an American concept. It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty. I needn't mention the points of conflict surrounding the recent war.

American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture. They see England as 'cute' and 'quaint' and are fascinated by a history they have never known for themselves. If only they could package it up in a cute little box and take it away with them.

Of course, it would be completely unfair to judge a country by merit of its tourists. If Britain were judged on its tourists, international perception would probably include the words 'ignorant', 'indecent', 'rowdy' and 'uncultured'.

And they would be quite right. In general, the Great British populace are an ignorant bunch, leading soundbite lives based on instant gratification with their indiscriminate consumption of food, 'culture' and politics. Is it fair to say this is representative of how this country is run and permit others to make judgements based on our behaviour? Of course it is! Human beings have a choice. Their behaviour abroad is no less indicative of their mindset as their actions at home.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been. And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof). The thing is, America is incredibly insecure. By nature of it being the biggest power in our modern world, it is constantly faced with the threat of a fall. And it's a long way from the top, as any befallen athlete, actor or CEO will tell you. There will always be another country threatening a bigger gun, more WMD's, more troops, more... whatever. It is America's duty to stay on top of this and ensure that no one else rivals their pole position. America is the best country in the world, and don't you forget it.

In my assessment of America I do not implicitly condone, flatter or otherwise 'big up' my own country or any other. This is not an argument of moral, financial or political superiority. It would be nice to be able to express a critique of a person, institution or country without fear of an emotional reaction, and a lot of this debate has been reaction, not response.

It is also worth mentioning that mine, jag's, or anyone else's opinion about the States is not a detraction from people's individual or personal 'goodness'. There are many lovely people in America as there are in this country, or anywhere else. We are merely reviewing the overriding sentiment. Unfortunately, as someone mentioned earlier, it is often very difficult to usurp some kind of honest self-reflection in most American people, and I include a couple of my American friends in this assessment. One girl I have known for two years still gets very protective of her country, and will not listen to balanced criticism, even when I know she agrees. It is as if there is a guilt associated with self-deprecation - like it demonstrates betrayal or weakness - when in fact it belies strength.

The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.

And for any of you tempted to respond to this with some ill thought-out, personally insulting or otherwise retaliatory one-liner, I'll leave you with the best quote I've seen in the Cellar for ages:

Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit. © Jaguar

[lumberjim]

yeah. nice teeth, limey

[Undertoad]

All's fair on posts and boards.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Little things like Columbine, Ted Bundy, etc, etc, etc

And we really don't have crime like this in America either, as you well know. Events like these are the tails of the bell curve.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

intolerably slick

Cat, this section bapped the lightbulb in my head on, and especially those words. It's a lovely insight, well said.

There is a deep cultural problem here, but the thing is, it's not really American so much as it is industrial/globalization related.

A hundred and fifty years ago, you bought a pen. It was a fountain pen, and it was individually crafted from its component parts by another human being, probably working alone. It cost 100 hours of your salary to buy this pen, but the pen was a beautiful thing.

Yesterday, you bought a pen. It cost you 5 minutes of your salary to buy this pen. It is much better and longer lasting than the pen of 150 years ago. The ink doesn't need to be bought separately. The ink writes on ten times as many surfaces as the pen of 150 years ago. It will last you for a year, after which you'll use another 5 minutes of salary to buy one exactly like it.

And that's the problem: it'll be exactly like it. It's still a pen, better in almost every single way... except one: mass-created by machine, not carefully created by an artisan, this pen has no soul. It's an empty shell of a pen, and now the meaning of what a pen really is, changes in ways we might not like.

Today's pen, better in every way... except that it has no soul. It is intolerably slick. And when we use it, we lose a little soul ourselves. But the fact that it's better in every other way means that its acceptance, its purchase, its use is inevitably going to take over.

And as a side effect, the working classes will have pens of their own.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been.

I've heard Winston Churchhill was happy in a way to see the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. It's said that he believed that was the point at which the US would really get serious about Germany. Until then the US had stayed out of it. Not really our battle.

And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof).

I was kinda waiting for the point where the Switzerland fans would come up against any other Europeans in the house.

The thing is, America is incredibly insecure.

For your marvelous insights, here is the only place I see you slip. Americans are not insecure whatsoever. We are absolutely convinced that we are the biggest, baddest motherfuckers on the planet. The thing that pisses us off the most is that you forget it. If you knock down our tallest fucking tower, the only thing you'll find ten years later is that we've built a bigger, badder fucking tower to replace it, and we don't really care if you think we're whipping out our big dicks or flipping you the bird.

From outside our culture I'm sure much of that is appalling. From inside it, I know I am often appalled. But it does not come from insecurity.

The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.

It's the strongest, therefore it has further to fall. But it's really only vulnerable to fear. Take 9/11 as an example. What happens if you obliterate ten blocks of infrastructure in the financial district of the most important city in the country? Well the financial folks have always planned for massive failure, and many of the worst-hit were up and running the next day with backup networks in other parts of the country. But the financial effect of people not traveling, not hiring, not buying, etc. because of fear was pretty bad.

The truth is, the world has much more to fear from the fall of America than from its continued strength. For example, the US is responsible for the security of most of the world's major sealanes where oil is shipped. The entire world benefits. That's military overstretch.

The other truth is, as the strongest, we automatically become the target. We automatically become the scapegoat. I for one hate the notion of the US being the world's police force. But we have a very different responsibility if we are targets and/or scapegoats.

edited to add final paragraph sorry

Originally Posted by wolf

And we really don't have crime like this in America either, as you well know. Events like these are the tails of the bell curve.

Sure, the Swiss bell curve is in part smaller due to a smaller population. This whole thing has become absurd. I don't blame UT for being amused. I suspect that if my Aunt Elsa were to read it, she'd be in hysterics. What a silly circular argument we've all been having.

[russotto]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.

America's very foundation is war, a nasty, brutal war known as the American Revolution. But Europe can hardly reasonably hold that against us without forgetting its own history.

Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick.

You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?

'Price wars' is an American concept.

A price war is when competitors engage in a competition for customers by lowering prices. This is a problem?

It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty.

Ahh, yes, the "America is responsible for all the troubles of the world" theory. As for Free Trade Zones, seems to me the largest one is in Europe.

American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture.

Eh? They're tourists. On vacation for a week or two, maybe a month at the outside, how are they to "involve themselves in the local culture"? As for the rest, much of that is sampling bias; the assholes tend to be noticed. Not that there's any shortage of obnoxious Americans, granted.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been.

Which is why the British needed to forge a telegram to get the US into WWI, which is why the US didn't enter WWII until attacked, which is why the US made no moves against the Taliban until attacked by their associates, etc. Oh, sure, you can find times (putting Iraq aside for the moment) where the US has acted in a trigger-happy manner (Grenada, the Spanish-American War, Vietnam -- though note in the last two cases a provocation was invented to get the American public's support), but what you call lack of euphemism is rather ridiculous overstatement.

[warch]

You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?

as are Fox and Films.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by perth

And you express them eloquently. That steamroller idea is fantastic. My only concern is that he would be dead well before the job was done. Surely we can make him suffer longer? Perhaps the steamroller bit should be a finale of sorts.

I'll bet a slow drawing-and-quartering would be suitably torturous.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Europe is far further to the left, your left wing is right of our right wing most of the time, tends to be why we particularly dislike your right wing leaders. Clinton is pretty popular over here. Jinx, travelled much?

It figures. Sadaam liked him too. Clinton was a power-abusing, wishy-washy idiot. Don't bother to defend him if you like him. I'm not issuing a challenge, just stating my opinion.