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Old 11-30-2003, 07:29 PM   #16
Undertoad
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I can't imagine how those little pathetic exchanges led to a complete departure of the forum. I wouldn't have thought they represented an "explanation" of a "side".

I looked at the whole response and decided I wouldn't want a friend who operated that way. Or one who trolled everyone - insulting Juju's BABY? Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway? I am not only not down with that kind of crap as a target, I'm against it as an innocent bystander.
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Old 11-30-2003, 07:34 PM   #17
juju
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To be fair, though, "pussy" is probably uncalled for.

(edit: that wasn't intended as a direct reply to the above comment, UT)

Last edited by juju; 11-30-2003 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 11-30-2003, 09:22 PM   #18
jeni
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Quote:
Originally posted by juju
There is so much concern about name-calling and getting "personal". For some reason it's seen as off-limits and "morally reprehensible".

But there is also truth. When someone acts like a jerk, I feel like it's okay to say, "Hey, you're acting like a jerk. What's up with that?" For that person to then come back and say, "Oh, well, now you're getting personal!" is incomprehensible to me.

Also, to have good friends, you have to treat them with respect. That's the way it should be, anyway.
I have no problem with name-calling, however, when one person is referring to another as a coward and a child, I find it rather amusing that said person is being quite cowardly and childish themself. I'm forced to sit here and say "Hi, you should talk."
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Old 11-30-2003, 09:28 PM   #19
jeni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
I can't imagine how those little pathetic exchanges led to a complete departure of the forum. I wouldn't have thought they represented an "explanation" of a "side".

I looked at the whole response and decided I wouldn't want a friend who operated that way. Or one who trolled everyone - insulting Juju's BABY? Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway? I am not only not down with that kind of crap as a target, I'm against it as an innocent bystander.
The baby thing was stupid. I'm not defending that. I can see David's point on the matter; however, I still think it was pretty dumb.

Are you seriously bringing up the mocking of sycamore being unemployed? Give me a break, I've seen Dave and sycamore joke about that on here more than once. Just like they joke about looks and weight. Was it low of Dave to bring that up? Sure, just as low as it was of sycamore to bring up Dave's eye. Should it have ruined their friendship? No. Not in my opinion, and not in Dave's opinion either. Should friends act like adults and work through shit like this? Yes. They should.

As far as your knowledge on the matter goes, you chose not to ask questions. LIKE I SAID, if you had asked about it, I'm sure he would have been happy to explain. Since the whole thing had nothing to do with you personally, I would say that your refusal to ask follow-up questions, and therefore the resulting ignorance of the situation, is your own fault.
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Old 11-30-2003, 10:24 PM   #20
Undertoad
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It's really sweet how you defend your brother like that and feel so entitled to just flip blame around hoping to cause some kind of collateral damage.

He didn't get his way. He didn't get respect. And he got all pouty and took his football and ran home.

It ain't pretty, and neither are you defending it with your little complicated, invented additional drama.

Because I don't recall you being on the CC list on our little back and forth, so maybe you have no concept and should just shut the fuck up while you're ahead.
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Old 11-30-2003, 11:13 PM   #21
jeni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
It's really sweet how you defend your brother like that and feel so entitled to just flip blame around hoping to cause some kind of collateral damage.

He didn't get his way. He didn't get respect. And he got all pouty and took his football and ran home.

It ain't pretty, and neither are you defending it with your little complicated, invented additional drama.

Because I don't recall you being on the CC list on our little back and forth, so maybe you have no concept and should just shut the fuck up while you're ahead.
I'm not defending my brother. The fact of the matter is that since I know what happened, and you are unwilling to learn, I know more about the situation from his point of view.

I think it's funny that you're completely willing to turn on him even though he did nothing to you. I think it's petty and childish of you, because you're a grown man. GROW THE FUCK UP.

Just like everyone else here, I am reading and posting my opinions. I'm not adding drama. I'm not getting into the business with sycamore and Dave, simply stating what I know to be true. I'm not taking sides. I've said not one thing to sycamore about the whole mess, because it's not my place to moderate...just like it's not your place to do so.

You're right, I wasn't on the CC list, but I have seen the emails. Therefore, I do have some concept of what went on, and like I said, I'm posting my opinion.

Also, don't fucking condescend to me.
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Old 12-01-2003, 01:28 AM   #22
xoxoxoBruce
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Quote:
Yo Hayward, there's a subtle difference between you and dave that perhaps you hadn't noticed. You have 46 posts of little but trolling crap. Dave has 2 years of thousands of postings of enormous substance. Therefore he is respected and you are not.
what a difference a few days make. I see sparks and smoke and slobber being flung about. A lot of people ranting with unusual vitriol. Passion and posturing by most everyone but Dave and Syc. Hmmmm, curiouser and curiouser.
Tony going off on Jeni out of frustration because he feels she's doing what Dave ought to be doing himself. At least that's my take on it, but I've been wrong before, once in 1967, but that's another story.
Dave, Mr in your face, over the top, throw an insult I'll throw back a grenade leaves in a snit?
Syc, drops a couple of turds and retreats to the high ground and suddenly has nothing to say. Even lets Rho use the computer for a change.
How in hell did April's thread stir up this kind of shit?

Is it my fault? If I apologized to hayward for calling her a lying cunt would that calm everyone down? Well if that's the case..... Fuck it, you can all leave.:p
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Old 12-01-2003, 02:47 AM   #23
adny
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So I don't know enough about what happened. All I know is what David told me, and the way it seems, I can understand why he felt prompted to do what he did. I just hope that all of this is worth losing a friendship over, and that's all.
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Old 12-01-2003, 08:49 AM   #24
Undertoad
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Quote:
I think it's funny that you're completely willing to turn on him even though he did nothing to you.
Turning...! He fuckin' LEFT, is THAT turning?

What WILL you do to throw blame anywhere else?

Yeah, I suspect I'm really at the bottom of this somehow, although I never asked to be or wanted to be, and it only serves to confirm why I'm an anti-social bastard.

I don't have many friends and I really really like it that way. Dave was not my "friend". He was some dude I know who lives 3 hours away. I have three friends that I treasure like gold and I would die for them. Everyone else, OUT OF THE GODDAMN POOL.

Also, this confirms to me why I don't like GTGs and didn't have any for a decade. And why I won't attend another one for a decade. Christ.

People: they fuckin' suck.
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Old 12-01-2003, 10:25 AM   #25
ladysycamore
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
I don't have many friends and I really really like it that way. Dave was not my "friend". He was some dude I know who lives 3 hours away. I have three friends that I treasure like gold and I would die for them. Everyone else, OUT OF THE GODDAMN POOL.

Also, this confirms to me why I don't like GTGs and didn't have any for a decade. And why I won't attend another one for a decade. Christ.

People: they fuckin' suck.
Yes they sure do. But you know what? You don't have to let them get under your skin. The faster I learned that, the better off I was as a person, IMO. Quite frankly, my days of making friends are over (in other words, I'm not seeking 'new recruits', if you will). I have my "crew" back home in Baltimore that will ALWAYS be my closest and dearest. IF I happen to make more, then great. If not, then oh well, my life still goes on.

Please don't let this drama keep you from enjoying people that you DO like and trust. It's not even worth it.
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:04 AM   #26
dave
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This had to be broken up due to size limits... my apologies in advance.

So, my email this holiday weekend has included a number of snippings from various posts here. That's disappointing, because it's compelled me to actually take time and respond.

Tony said the following: "The fact that it's supposed to be some deep dark secret says much more: it's pathetic game-playing". Those are some big words. Care to back them up?

You can't (they're opinion). The <b>fact</b> of the matter is that I chose to keep the details private out of respect for you and sycamore. I'm not sure about sycamore, but my respect for you was obviously very misplaced. So I'm opening it up, for everyone to see.

<b>The Eye</b>
The name calling with sycamore in the "Things you should do." thread started with my comment that, if you use standard viewing options, is at the very bottom of page 15. In it I stated: "I would think your number one goal, however, would be plastic surgery, you ugly bag of slop." He responded with "I'm there as soon as you get a new eye and a sparkling personality...", which is the <b>first</b> eye comment. I posted a frownie a few minutes later, one which I thought would convey humor (as I have previously stated in the aforementioned thread). It starts again a few posts later, when ladysycamore remarks "Not for all the money in the world!" regarding the idea of engaging in sexual intercourse with Ron Jeremy. I responded "And yet, you're with sycamore." - to which sycamore responded "And yet, Jenni's with you." Okay, nothing wrong here yet. We go back and forth for a little while longer. I said "And that being the case, earns the title 'Most Tolerant Person In The World'. (Rho gets the "Poorest Taste In The World" award. :P )", he said "That, or she's blinder than you.", making the <b>second</b> eye comment. I responded "I would think that would be quite obvious. (Incidentally, I'm the only one out of the four of us that doesn't wear glasses and has 20/10 vision. You fucking nerds.)" and he said "I may be a nerd, but how is your depth perception and peripheral vision?", making the <b>third</b> eye comment. We should note that up until this point, I haven't said anything about the eye.

My response is then "My peripheral vision is quite good. The depth perception obviously is non-existant. Neither have kept me from having a job while you were collecting unemployment these past few years. (What's it like to be a burden to the state?)", which, to me, continued along the same lines of "playful namecalling" that had been thriving in this thread. Nothing more of the eye is said until lumberjim says (on the fifth post on page 18) "no fair picking on a physical malady". I addressed this comment as follows:

Quote:
As far as picking on me/joking about the eye... I would agree that it's a bit out of line, as far as the "in good nature" 'fighting' that sycamore and I do. Making fun of someone for something they can't change is... well, out of line. I call sycamore "ugly" or "stupid", neither of which he is. I don't joke about his weight either, 'cause it doesn't seem fun to make fun of him for an actual fault. It's definitely disappointing that he's not more creative in finding things to joke about, but I'm not losing any sleep over it either. Nothing anyone on the Cellar says about me actually bothers me. I've heard it all before. No matter what your insult or joke about my eye, someone has done worse. Like I said, it's more a disappointment than anything else.
sycamore's response is:

Quote:
Of course, it usually helps if you tell someone that you'd prefer them not to joke about something...especially when they've laughed with you about it before. And of course, had he asked me to refrain, I would have been more than happy to...I would have even removed the posts with references to it.

Talk about disappointing...
We then continue like so:

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
Like I said, it's not a huge deal. It's kind of like not winning the lottery.

I didn't care to make a big deal of it, 'cause it wasn't a big deal. You're a cool enough dude that it doesn't make our friendship a negative thing for me. Re-introducing me to Reverend Horton Heat (I hadn't really listened to much by him since I first heard of him when Toadies broke out), feeding me Philly cheesesteaks... there was something else cool about our friendship, wasn't there? Oh yeah, you're ugly.
Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
But enough of a deal to put it out here on Cellar?
Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
Well, the 2 times I was on unemployment were not due to any fault of my own (that I know of)--both were unavoidable situations. There wasn't anything I could do to change them (other than look for new jobs, which I did).

So, how would you explain the first comment? Was it said to "teach me a lesson", b/c I gave you shit about your eye?
At this point, I call him to task, because I am getting tired of this argument. It wasn't a big deal to me, and it apparently wasn't a big deal to him until I said something about <b>my own eye</b>.

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
No, I was just fucking around with you. If I wanted to "teach you a lesson", I would have brought it up a long time ago. Like I said, it's not a huge deal.

I do consider being unemployed a situation that can generally be remedied if you work hard enough. I know that you were looking for a job, and it's all good. I didn't write it angry or anything. But "looking for a job" and "being so desperate to work that I was begging Steve's Prince of Steaks to hire me at minimum wage so I could have a paycheck" are two different things. I'm not saying you were a lazy bastard, but I seriously doubt you were scouring the city looking for any place that would take you. You were too busy posting on the Cellar.
I messaged sycamore that night on AOL Instant Messenger, trying to get a sense of whether or not he was actually upset. I asked him as much. He said something to the effect of "I think it was pretty shitty to bring it up on the Cellar". I asked "What, the eye thing?" and he said "Yes." Unfortunately, this is the only part of the whole ordeal that I don't have logs of, but the words were very close to what I have posted, if not exactly the same. I then indicated that I was only fucking around. "I'm glad you think this is funny" was his response. I told him that I was sorry that it upset him; he got offline without saying another word.

Now, unfortunately, I have not exchanged many words with sycamore since the incident, but I can only be left to believe that he's referring to my post in which I addressed lumberjim's comment (seeing as he said "Yes" when I asked if he was referring to the eye thing). As I have clearly demonstrated above, he first brought up my eye, and made <b>three</b> separate "mean-spirited" comments about it. I say "mean-spirited" because they weren't inquisitive like Bruce's. I don't mean to imply that he meant to hurt my feelings, only that the nature of the comments is not productive.

The next morning, the following has been posted by Undertoad in the same thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
David, under the thread "things you should do" here is the thing you should not do:

You should not playfully start insulting people as a way of cementing your friendship if you have an invisible line they cannot cross.

This is inconsiderate at best, game-playing at worst. Suddenly you go from happily taunting to being hurt, and there is no way to know where that line is.

Either you have to drop the practice of insulting people as a way of being close to them, or you have to accept *anything* they hand back to you.

And by the way, just for future reference, I don't play that particular game; if you insult me as a way of getting closer to me, I will probably react poorly.
I felt he was <b>way</b> off base, and responded as follows:
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:05 AM   #27
dave
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Quote:
Originally posted by dave
I never went to being hurt. The only thing I posted that in any way resembled that was the frownie, which I did because I thought it was funny. (Come on. Dave, He Who Hardly Ever Backs Down And Never Shuts Up, posting a single frownie. I thought it was funny.)

I didn't say anything until lumberjim said "no fair picking on a physical malady", where I then explained that while it wasn't my favorite thing in the world, I wasn't bawling over it either.

I went from happily taunting to... happily taunting while explaining my reaction to certain happy taunting. I even made it clear that there really isn't anything someone could say here that would hurt my feelings.

Now you say "Either you have to drop the practice of insulting people as a way of being close to them, or you have to accept *anything* they hand back to you." -- which is exactly what I've done. I didn't ask him to stop, I didn't explode at him. He's done it a number of times, and his creativity in it at times is quite funny. So I let it slide, 'cause it's not a big deal. When I said it was "out of line", maybe those weren't the best words. What I meant to convey was that it seemed abnormal for the sycamore. Not that I was distressed by it.

For future reference, I know you don't play that particular game, which is why there are threads in my weblog dedicated only to kissing your ass and making you feel rosy. You're a cool dude, so is sycamore. I'm not mad at him, though I am kind of bewildered that this has turned into such a big deal. I just thought it was appropriate that lumberjim's comment was addressed, and as the night went on, I realized that I hadn't done a proper job of offering my whole view (bwahaha, NBN).

You know, I'm just going to put it here again, so there's no question about it:

sycamore cracking eye jokes is not my favorite thing in the world, because if I could change it, I would, and yeah, it's kind of a shitty thing that happened. It's sort of like making rape jokes to a rape victim - one of those things you normally don't do. So when he first did it (it doesn't really phase me any more, because I expect it), I was taken aback. Now, it's kinda like "oh well". Like I said before, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I think about it for probably about two or three seconds, and then I'm over it. sycamore is a pretty cool dude, and I like him. He's made eye jokes for a while now, and I haven't stopped liking him. No one need get upset at people taking cracks at me (I can handle them), especially playful ones.

If you don't want something discussed on the Cellar, <b>don't mention it on the Cellar</b>. It's not like I started a fucking thread "sycamore picks on me unfairly about my eye". He made a number of cracks about it, jim said something, and I offered my thoughts - 'cause, you know, it's <b>my fucking eye</b>.

Tony, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree. I hope this has clarified my position, and I will email you about some further issues so as not to "air dirty laundry" in front of the crowd.
I then followed up with an email, the contents of which are posted below:

Quote:
In and email dated 11/26/2003 at 10:15 AM Dave wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is fucking bullshit. sycamore makes numerous cracks
about the eye, I don't say anything. lumberjim makes a comment, I address
it (perhaps poorly), sycamore gets bent out of shape. I try to apologize
to him last night, he is unreceptive. I *know* he talked to you, because
there's no fucking way that you misread the thread that bad. Then you post
in the Cellar. The issue is no longer my eye but sycamore's hurt feelings.

Me posting about topic in Cellar that directly relates to me but was
brought up by someone else: Bad (apparently)

You posting about topic in Cellar that indirectly relates to you (you own
the medium) but was not brought up in the Cellar (therefore you are making
the first post about it): OK

How the fuck? If sycamore has a problem, he can write about it himself or
send me a fucking email. I tried to talk to him last night and he didn't
want to fucking hear it. If you want to talk about it, you can write me a
fucking email. You're entitled to an opinion, but posting it in the Cellar
where I can't openly respond to it (because - hey - I don't air issues in
there unless they've been brought up there) pretty well fucking sucked. I
didn't bring up my eye, dude. I didn't go "Oh, look at me, I only have one
eye." He started fucking joking about it, and he posted what, three or
four of those on the Cellar? And it gets discussed there and it's some
fucking taboo? No, I'm sorry. It's not. He brought it up, I didn't say
shit. I saw lumberjim's comment and basically wanted to say "It's not a
big deal, dude." At the same time, I didn't want everyone to think "hey,
it's cool to pick on disabled people!" so I tried to make it clear that
normally it is *not cool*, but between sycamore and I, we're good enough
buddies that it's not a problem.

I don't know why the fuck he's so bent out of shape about it ('cause he,
uh, won't fucking tell me, 'cause he, uh, apparently doesn't like
resolving issues?) so I'm really left to sit here and wonder how the fuck
something so stupid evolved into this.
Tony responded as follows, in an email at 10:41 AM:

Quote:
Syc did call me, but I was previously taken aback by your frowny face.

If this whole thing is an Issue, I am happy to butt out and not try to moderate it. I'm agree that Terry should address it directly. I'm extremely sorry I got involved. I'm not good at human relations anyway.

The fact I own the place has no bearing.
Right off the bat, the last thing he says, "The fact that I own the place has no bearing." removes <b>any</b> relation he has to the issue. So essentially he's admitting "It's none of my fucking business", which is backed up by what he says above that.

I responded with the following two emails, to which I received no response:

Quote:
Well, that's the thing, it wasn't an issue to me until he was acting like
a fucking woman last night in not wanting to talk about it. I got the
feeling, after reading his "Talk about being disappointed" post, that he
was actually upset about this and maybe about the "job" comment, which was
all I really had to hit back with (he doesn't have a physical disability
to make fun of). So I message him and I'm like "Dude, I was just screwing
around. You're not actually upset, are you?" His response was "I'm glad
you think it's funny." Well, yeah, we were joking around, so I did think
it was funny. So I'm like "Man, I'm not really upset, I was just trying to
address lumberjim, blah blah blah." He says "I think it was kind of shitty
to bring it up on the Cellar". ??????? I tried to talk more and he got
offline without saying anything else. I'm trying to talk to him about it
and he's unreceptive. I didn't mean to fucking upset him. As far as I can
tell, the job thing didn't upset him, just the eye thing (but like I said,
I don't know, 'cause he isn't fucking talking). Well. What do you expect?
If you say something on the Cellar, yeah, someone might talk about it.

I don't mean to be shitty with you, but it was like "Okay, don't read
Dave's posts at all or try to understand exactly what's going on." He
doesn't want it on the Cellar. He PUT it on the Cellar. And I still didn't
take issue with it!

If your whole direction was steered by the frownie, then I'm sorry that
wasn't more obvious. To me, it was obvious. I thought sycamore would get
it too 'cause yes, I *have* laughed with him about it in the past, and to
me, the thought of Dave posting a single frownie is fucking absurd. Which
is why I did it. I laughed at it. I'm sorry not everyone got it.
Quote:
And by the way, I don't mind that you're trying to help, because even when
I disagree with you, I know that your intentions are good. I might doubt
your words, but I believe in the Tone. But I just felt like... what the
fuck am I explaining this for if no one is going to read it?
At this point in time, I thought that things between Tony and I are okay, and he had given me no outward indication that would lead me to believe anything else.
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:06 AM   #28
dave
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<b>The Departure</b>
When I got home from work that evening, I messaged sycamore on AOL Instant Messenger. The conversation went as follows:

dave (11:48:50 PM): are we on not-speaking terms still?
sycamore (11:49:28 PM): beyond cellar, yes
dave (11:50:12 PM): that gonna wear off any time soon or no?
sycamore (11:50:59 PM): don't know
dave (11:51:11 PM): alright dude. have a good one.

I was pretty disappointed, because I had been trying to salvage the relationship and it didn't seem as though he wanted to do so. I was also still disappointed with Tony's handling of the situation, though I had (mistakenly, it turns out) believed it to be in good faith. That having been said, I didn't feel that the situation was workable for the Cellar. The whole time I have been there, sycamore and I have been friends, and I felt disgusted and disappointed enough with the whole situation to call it quits. I would salvage the friendships I had, leave the rest behind and get on with my life. I wrote my goodbye post and went to sleep.

As it turns out, things are not that simple!

I emailed Tony the next day. Twice. They said the following:

Quote:
email to Tony, subject "so, by now you've read it"
And the question is, are we still cool, or is this an unrecoverable sin against you? I'll work with either but I vastly prefer the former. (I need someone to buy a freaking Xbox for.)
Quote:
email to Tony, subject "since he brought you into it..."
here's the grand finale.

[ -- last conversation between sycamore and I, as posted above but with screennames complete -- ]

we both infiltrated basically every thread and i just don't see it working right with such a big schism. i'm dismayed, obviously, but that's life. someone(s) will fill my spot on the cellar, i might actually get something done at work, and life will go on.

thanks to you personally for hosting it, and for being a cool dude. i hope you and i are still cool, but i'll understand if we're not. have a good one.

dave
As is pretty clear, I'm trying to salvage whatever it is I have with Tony. He responds, and I'm going to copy this whole email right here into this post.

Quote:
Tony's email to me, subject "Re: so, by now you've read it"
Good luck in the future.
We all know that he didn't actually mean "Good luck, dude!" - he meant "Fuck you." Which is fine. He's entitled to say whatever he wants.

I responded:

Quote:
email to Tony, subject "Re: so, by now you've read it"[/i]
You too then, sir.
And that was that!
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:08 AM   #29
dave
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<b>lumberjim's thread</b>
lumberjim started this thread, and it's drawn a fair number of posts. A few different people have sent me portions of it, and I wasn't going to respond, but there are a few points I think that need to be brought up, and so I will do so.

Quote:
lumberjim
dave got his feelings hurt, took his ball and left.
No. I left for reasons stated above and in my farewell post, which have been expanded upon in this thread by others. (Believe it or not, a couple of people actually <b>understand</b> why I left, and have said as such in email.)

Quote:
lumberjim
ok, jeni. whatever. I know he didn't get his feelings hurt about the eye. When I started this thread and the poll, I was dissapointed, and I was trying to egg him into returning. This seemed like such a little thing to quit over. I would have thought that someone who had as much time and supposed effort invested would be harder to shake. So he and syc had a problem. What about the other people he liked? To bail outlike that is cowardly. If he was just sick of the cellar, he should have said so instead of burrying sycamore by laying the blame at his feet.

Makes me think he's got hurt feelings. I don't know why I give a shit. When I first joined, I assumed he must be one of the moderators or maybe the admin, because he was treated like one. He was respected. THIS just makes him look childish. Like he just wants the attention. What a way to go.

I realize now, however, that even if he DID return, it wouldn't be the same. The damage is done.

I have lost respect for him, and his words wouldn't mean as much ( at least to me) [not that he should care about what I think] anyway. Too bad.

Whatever.
I guess it's good that I don't answer to you or value your opinion on my life then, isn't it? It's not such a "little thing" (as I have said above and will demonstrate below). I tried to fix a problem, the other party was unreceptive, and I looked at the whole picture and made a choice. Angelus will be happy, others will be disappointed. They will get over it, and anyone that really cares to know me can private message me or email me.

I don't want attention, which is another one of the reasons I didn't make a huge deal about it and post everything when I left. As for it making me look "childish" - what, trying to resolve a conflict is childish? You say nothing of the other players here? Why, because one of them is so grown up as to call names behind someone's back? If your measure of what is childish and what is not was the one that mattered, then I think this world would be a much worse place than it is. Perhaps you should wonder why you feel yourself so qualified to write about something on which you are largely ignorant? Because until these posts, you didn't really have any fucking idea what happened here.

Quote:
Undertoad
He always becomes increasingly abusive and then burns all his bridges and bolts?

How many friends does he have left, with such immature boorish behavior?

What binds you to attempt to defend this kind of stuff without being able to talk about it? Oh, OK, fine, it wasn't cowardly, it was some other form of unspeakable bullshit that permits him and only him to be a total ass.

I for one don't care much about the reason. The fact that it's supposed to be some deep dark secret says much more: it's pathetic game-playing, and the most pathetic thing of all is that the game is still going on and you've been brought into it and are playing it, days after the fact.

Cowardly behavior. As LJ says, pussy. Pussy pussy pussy.

Monday his forum is archived.
Er, where did I become increasingly abusive toward sycamore? He was calling me names and you said nothing. I respond, and you come in like the fucking savior. You then acknowledge privately that you're not very good at human relations. Now here you are, acting like an expert.

I have a number of very good friends, and the reason I am blessed as such is because they too <b>act like adults</b> when it's necessary. Fucking around is all well and good 95% of the time, but when relationships are on the line, sycamore and you are apparently incapable of acting your age. He is 28, and you just turned 40. This is what you're capable of? Taking to a public forum to discuss a private matter that you declined to discuss with me when you had the chance? Oh, what a big man you are! You are 40 going on 8.

Quote:
Undertoad
I can't imagine how those little pathetic exchanges led to a complete departure of the forum. I wouldn't have thought they represented an "explanation" of a "side".

I looked at the whole response and decided I wouldn't want a friend who operated that way. Or one who trolled everyone - insulting Juju's BABY? Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway? I am not only not down with that kind of crap as a target, I'm against it as an innocent bystander.
You don't want a friend who operates that way, and yet you're friends with sycamore? 'Cause he operates pretty much the same way. You know, with namecalling and all.

Here's where it gets even more absurd, folks! Talking about juju's baby or "Mocking Syc for being on Unemployment? Where IS the line, anyway?" - apparently not at making fun of people with disabilities, because <b>you didn't say a goddamn word about that!</b> Once when he was on the phone while in the TT on the way down here and <b>three</b> times in the "Things you should do" thread sycamore made a joke comment about my eye. Where were you then, standing up for decency?

The fact of the matter is, you're <b>not</b> against it, and <b>you're a liar for saying so</b>. On 09/28/2003 you posted the following to LUVBUGZ in the "MotherF#$%@*!!!!!!" thread: "I warned you not to share a thread with me, you worthless fucking attention whore." You're not only not against it, but you do it as well!

I made a habit of calling LUVBUGZ names, and you privately messaged me your approval:

Of LUVBUGZ, I said to you "See, as you recall, I asked you about her a month or so ago. 'Cause I knew then that she was a babbling retard. And she's proven me right. Good lord dumb people peeve me. Who allowed her to get a computer?" and you responded "True. It did take about 300 messages for it to be proven to be completely without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. But true."

After you and I were ripping into her on the forums, you messaged me the following:

"You're a cat person, and you don't live in the city, so I know you've seen when a cat catches some prey and brings it home and plays with it.

That's what we're basically doing."

You said, on 10/03/2003 in a private message: "Thinking about this another way, back in the day we used to put annoying users through an organized silent treatment that was absolutely effective. For LB, this treatment would be devastating. I mean I almost hesitate to suggest it because it's so harsh, but imagine what would happen if none of her posts resulted in so much as a "who cares" post in response?

For an <b>attention whore</b>, that's like torture."

The emphasis was mine, but the words are yours, and the hostility is undeniable when referenced against your posts and private messages.

I said to you, after an attack on LUVBUGZ, "JESUS CHRIST SHE IS STUPID." and you responded "Well yer doin' the good work these days. I can't right now, for some reason, but everyone knows and agrees with you and is happy to see it."

Of my picking on LUVBUGZ and in response to something Matt had said and I forwarded to you, you had the following to say: "Well either way, it's vital important work you're doing.. keep it up."

Does this sound like the type of person that is against the namecalling behavior? Not only not standing up to it (until I am gone) but <b>encouraging</b> it privately?

Quote:
Undertoad
It's really sweet how you defend your brother like that and feel so entitled to just flip blame around hoping to cause some kind of collateral damage.

He didn't get his way. He didn't get respect. And he got all pouty and took his football and ran home.

It ain't pretty, and neither are you defending it with your little complicated, invented additional drama.

Because I don't recall you being on the CC list on our little back and forth, so maybe you have no concept and should just shut the fuck up while you're ahead.
You are smart, Tony, but you are in an indefensible position. Jen is calling you on it, and instead of addressing her points, you dismiss them with an ad hominem attack. As has been explored many times on the Cellar, all this does is make you look like a fool. (You've succeeded. I am supported quite strongly in private emails whose authors concur that you are way off base. I'm not going to post them so as to keep said persons from incurring your wrath, but from the show of public support, I would guess you have perhaps three people that agree with you.)

She's not flipping blame around; she's simply looked at all the facts (she's read all communications, including the ones I hadn't saved) and has made an opinion. Your attempt to discredit her is insulting only to <b>you</b>, because it shows that you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument and are forced to resort to ad hominem attacks to defend your indefensible position.
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:09 AM   #30
dave
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Quote:
Undertoad on 11/24/2003
My impression was that any look of toughness built in to the dude (as is built in to most large-structured folks), is reduced in person by his genuine and pleasant demeanor. My considered opinion is that dave is not an asshole. I would even put that in writing and sign it.
This was <b>after</b> the baby comment. Yet somehow it works its way into this argument? The day before this whole thing broke, you and I were talking about our online gaming future together! We have talked multiple times about Jenni and I moving to Oaks to rent your spare rooms. Your considered opinion, just two days before this started, was "that dave is not an asshole. I would even put that in writing and sign it." All the quoted text in the first part of this was enough to change your mind?

Either way, you're an extremely poor judge of character (by making friendly when I'm a true asshole, or calling me a true asshole when I'm trying to be a friend). So what makes you think your opinion on this is valid <b>now</b>? Suddenly you're a good judge of character?

<b>Tony</b>
I think Tony identifies with sycamore's unemployment because Tony, too, has been unable to find work. It's my contention that my comment about sycamore's unemployment was one of the motivating factors for Tony to join the discussion and admonish me publicly. (Notice how he calls me "David" in his post to the "Things you should do" thread, as a parent would address a child, even though he has never called me "David" before.) He identifies with sycamore because they have known each other longer, and because sycamore called him and brought him into this. I should have been smart and recruited Tony, but I didn't think this was going to be a big deal. And hey, why not attack the guy that's not around to defend himself? You sure do look like a champion now.

So here we are, and you are acting like a child with hurt feelings. You say to Jen that she is trying to "flip blame around" - and you're acting like you and sycamore are blameless! I have <b>apologized</b> to sycamore for hurting his feelings, and <b>he did not want to hear it</b>. What makes a man more than being able to say "I was wrong, and I am sorry"? To you, it's apparently calling names behind someone's back.

What it all boils down to, Tony, is that you are a 40 year old <b>boy</b>. You are, for whatever reason, mentally immature. You're smart, and so most of the time you can pass yourself off. But when you get really called on it, you resort to personal attacks instead of meaningful rebuttals.

As someone that really cares about you, I want to raise one last idea before I'm gone for good. You're not a very introspective person. You have a hard time really diagnosing issues with yourself. Your mental immaturity is one of them. I hate to say it, but this is where having a male role model in your life would have helped. You have suffered without it. And it's sad, because I do want you to succeed and find happiness. If you don't believe this is real or affecting your life, I don't think you'll need to look farther than your "soon-to-be ex" for evidence. And if you think that had nothing to do with you, you need to think again. People don't fuckin' suck. Some are good, some are bad. Most are in between. Saying they suck is just an excuse for your inability to have a meaningful relationship with most of them.

What this has shown me is that, like most of us, you're struggling to make it through life. You've got a long ways to go, Tony. I hope that you can start acting like an adult and find that happiness.

I can only hope that you'll take this to heart. A week ago, you probably would have. I know that some things have changed since then, but a lot of things haven't. When you're ready to start acting like an adult, maybe the number of friends you have will exceed three.
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