06/03/03: Is being gay a choice? - Page 2

99 44/100% pure · 06-04-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
. . . marriage is work. You've got to reach compromises, learn to live with each other and work as a team, and not piss each other off. It requires constant maintenance and understanding, both of which have nothing to do with love. The love just makes it all worth it. . . .

Well, I would argue that the love is what makes all that work possible, but that's just nit-picking. As for nature vs. nurture, I think we'll eventually find that the two are more inextricably connected than we can now imagine. Personally, I think that orientation is primarily nature, but behavior (acting on one's orientation) is more a matter of choice. The question we seem to be struggling with in our current society is, should we expect a small minority to make difficult behavioral choices in order to conform with the basic nature of the vast majority?

In the case of Juju's couple, I think divorce would be best for all, including the kids. I had to make a similarly difficult decision with my marriage (not over sexual orientation, but a serious mental-health problem) after 15 years and three kids. Complicating matters was that we didn't hate each other, we were both good parents, and we enjoyed each other's company. Nevertheless, we are all better off now, separated, than we were three years ago.

Griff · 06-04-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warch

I'm the gal who dated that creative, arty, soon to come out 50% in college. I was a magnet. I ran a freakin' gay finishing school! You cant change 'em back, bless their little confused hearts.

Ever think of training women to develop your finishing skills... save a lot of heart ache in this mean ole world.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-04-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

She's insanely frustrated, and believes herself to be a worthless, inadequate woman who can't even please her own man. What little self-confidence she had has been completely obliterated, as she completely blames herself for everything. To be fair, she does say that he's selfish for not trying.

WTF! They both knew he was gay but decided to try to make a marriage. He failed and she thinks its her fault. What kind of retarded shit is that? How in hell is it her fault? I'll bet a years pay she thought, as soon as we have a baby everything will be just story book perfect. My god, how many people have made that stupid mistake. The shame is, then they dump a kid into their mess. Wake up world, a kid(s) solves nothing.
She can tell he's not enjoying sex because he makes faces? Bwhahahahahahahahahaha. If you ever watched someones face while their having sex (not on camera) you'd think they were being tortured. Except the wives that have a sandwitch and do their nails, that is.LOL
Anyway, what to do? The only way they can stay together is if they both get it through their thick fucking heads that neither one of them is a failure. Be realistic about what their situation is. Decide if there is enough love and common interest (NOT THE KID) to stay together without a "normal" sexual relationship. They can still have sex but it will have to be tailored to their tastes. If they can't do ALL of those things, and I doubt if their religion will let them, then they're better off apart.

juju · 06-04-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Except the wives that have a sandwitch and do their nails, that is.LOL

Heh, is that what the women you've been with look like during sex?

elSicomoro · 06-04-2003, 08:08 PM

I think sexual orientation is primarily an issue of nature, though it can certainly be affected by nurture. There was a study being done when I was in my last year of college...something involving one of the pairs of chromosomes...the 21st pair I believe. I haven't heard anything since, but it sounded interesting.

IIRC (Wolf might know better than me), homosexuality was removed from the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition--the psychologist's bible) in the late 70s/early 80s.

The bottom line with your friends, juju, is that they need to have a serious heart-to-heart. If they think they can make it work, great. If not, they need to cut their losses...now. And quite frankly, they need to find a way to take religion out of it. (Though that's a whole 'nother matter.)

wolf · 06-05-2003, 01:22 AM

Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder in DSM-II ... but was taken out in the DSM-III revision.

What IS a diagnosable disorder (although I don't know if there's a formal name for it and I'm too damn tired to bother to look it up) would be when an individual is SO discomforted by their sexual orientation that it causes significant problems in their ability to function.

I voted "lawyer" in the poll, but would have voted "shrink" or "marriage counsellor" if those choices had been available.

There are likely more issues in the marriage than are described here. Getting a third-party negotiator can help majorly in figuring out where to go from here ... find some compromise and stay together, or start taking the steps that will lead to the eventual dissolution of the marriage.

darclauz · 06-05-2003, 03:02 AM

what about just staying married, and finding a friend to blow off some of that unused sexual energy? didn't america think that was acceptable back in the 70s?

after all, bell bottoms are back................

That Guy · 06-05-2003, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a case study
I assume I'm not the only one out there who has had a same-sex fantasy or encounter. I could have gone to my own sex (who seem to be smarter) as easily as not. In the end, I made a choice.

There's just something about a hairy ass that doesn't quite do it for me. Oh yea, and the carrot and peas don't get me steamed up either.

My mother, who taught the first grade for a number of years, told me that she could pick out a kid or two in the class that were destined for gaydom. Sometimes they were little boys that had the mannerisms and interests that would make them flamers if they were adults. Other times they weren't as pronounced, but had more of an affliction for the same sex.

Some things might be predisposed, regardless of genetics.

Quote:

Except the wives that have a sandwitch and do their nails, that is.LOL

Trying to perfect the trifecta, yea?

xoxoxoBruce · 06-05-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Heh, is that what the women you've been with look like during sex?

Certainly not! How can they eat a sandwitch or do their nails bound with duct tape?

Torrere · 06-05-2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by darclauz
what about just staying married, and finding a friend to blow off some of that unused sexual energy? didn't america think that was acceptable back in the 70s?

after all, bell bottoms are back................

but AIDS didn't just go away

darclauz · 06-05-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Torrere

but AIDS didn't just go away

well, of course health cards and references would need to be checked....maybe bonded and insured...maybe bondage... but, hey!

MaggieL · 06-05-2003, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolf

What IS a diagnosable disorder (although I don't know if there's a formal name for it and I'm too damn tired to bother to look it up) would be when an individual is SO discomforted by their sexual orientation that it causes significant problems in their ability to function.

"Ego-dystonic homosexuality" is the one they put in the DSM.

I'm also reminded of the old Masters and Johinson quote about religious orthodoxy as being a primary cause of sexual dysfunction.

Whit · 06-06-2003, 12:03 AM

     Ya know, I gave this some thought and I don't get this guys deal. Why refuse to be who you are? I understand the religion being against it, but there are churches that don't go with that idea.
     Also, I figure if you are attracted to someone, and they are likewise interested go for it. Heck, I wouldn't even try to date a chic that had an appearance I found unappealing. I can't imagine going to a different gender. Oh well, I don't understand organized religion either.
     I wonder about the origins of the marrige though. If the guy was physicaly attracted to dudes, and she knew, wtf? I mean how much sex could she have expected when she isn't even his prefered gender? Did they discuss these issues?

juju · 06-06-2003, 12:18 AM

Well, first, they don't consider him to be gay. He's "chosen" not to be, and is therefore hetero in their eyes. She did know of his gay experiences, but figured that was all in his past, so what difference does it make? Therefore, he's not gay. If you accused him of it, he'd probably be insulted.

As to why they got married, they'd been very good friends for quite a long time. And you know how women get when they start to get older. They feel inadequate if they're not married, so they start bugging the crap out of the closet guy they're to.

Cut to several years later, and they're having a baby. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they picked the exact date that the egg dropped to have sex, just because that's what Kathy said her friends from college did.

Tobiasly · 06-06-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
Well, first, they don't consider him to be gay. He's "chosen" not to be, and is therefore hetero in their eyes.... If you accused him of it, he'd probably be insulted.

Bullshit. He may argue until he's blue in the face that he's not gay, and he may try to pretend that he's not, and he may even be insulted if you suggest he is.

But deep down, he knows he's gay and that he's never gonna change. I bet he fantasizes about banging a dude on those rare occasions where he fucks his wife.

She may believe his act, but he sure as hell isn't fooling himself.

View Poll Results: What should Jan hope for?
Lawyer	6	50.00%
Lover	2	16.67%
Miracle	4	33.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

06-05-2003, 01:22 AM	#21
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder in DSM-II ... but was taken out in the DSM-III revision. What IS a diagnosable disorder (although I don't know if there's a formal name for it and I'm too damn tired to bother to look it up) would be when an individual is SO discomforted by their sexual orientation that it causes significant problems in their ability to function. I voted "lawyer" in the poll, but would have voted "shrink" or "marriage counsellor" if those choices had been available. There are likely more issues in the marriage than are described here. Getting a third-party negotiator can help majorly in figuring out where to go from here ... find some compromise and stay together, or start taking the steps that will lead to the eventual dissolution of the marriage. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

06-05-2003, 03:02 AM	#22
darclauz Breathing into a paper bag Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 334	what about just staying married, and finding a friend to blow off some of that unused sexual energy? didn't america think that was acceptable back in the 70s? after all, bell bottoms are back................ __________________ Taking up smoking to lose weight.

06-06-2003, 12:03 AM	#28
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Ya know, I gave this some thought and I don't get this guys deal. Why refuse to be who you are? I understand the religion being against it, but there are churches that don't go with that idea. Also, I figure if you are attracted to someone, and they are likewise interested go for it. Heck, I wouldn't even try to date a chic that had an appearance I found unappealing. I can't imagine going to a different gender. Oh well, I don't understand organized religion either. I wonder about the origins of the marrige though. If the guy was physicaly attracted to dudes, and she knew, wtf? I mean how much sex could she have expected when she isn't even his prefered gender? Did they discuss these issues? __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

06-06-2003, 12:18 AM	#29
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Well, first, they don't consider him to be gay. He's "chosen" not to be, and is therefore hetero in their eyes. She did know of his gay experiences, but figured that was all in his past, so what difference does it make? Therefore, he's not gay. If you accused him of it, he'd probably be insulted. As to why they got married, they'd been very good friends for quite a long time. And you know how women get when they start to get older. They feel inadequate if they're not married, so they start bugging the crap out of the closet guy they're to. Cut to several years later, and they're having a baby. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they picked the exact date that the egg dropped to have sex, just because that's what Kathy said her friends from college did. Last edited by juju; 06-06-2003 at 12:21 AM.

06-04-2003, 08:08 PM	#20
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I think sexual orientation is primarily an issue of nature, though it can certainly be affected by nurture. There was a study being done when I was in my last year of college...something involving one of the pairs of chromosomes...the 21st pair I believe. I haven't heard anything since, but it sounded interesting. IIRC (Wolf might know better than me), homosexuality was removed from the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition--the psychologist's bible) in the late 70s/early 80s. The bottom line with your friends, juju, is that they need to have a serious heart-to-heart. If they think they can make it work, great. If not, they need to cut their losses...now. And quite frankly, they need to find a way to take religion out of it. (Though that's a whole 'nother matter.)

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