Why Do People Hate the USA

Actually, since I know him, I know that juju wasn't accusing me of ad hominem attacks. He was accusing me of being a great target for them, because it's easy to attack me and not my logic, many times because my vocabulary includes words that are objectionable to others. So don't be upset with juju - he was smiling affectionately as he wrote that.

Incidentally, my usage of profanities has dropped markedly in the last six months. However, simply because I use them by habit, they tend to come out now and then, mostly unintentionally.

Back to the only thing that could be considered "profane" in this discussion (if I recall correctly - I'm not going to go re-read everything to see if I accidentally tossed "fuck" in there), "sand nigger" was used as a quote (though without quotation marks) to represent the attitude of a fair number of Americans. I'm not saying this is a majority, but it is a significant minority. I thought I was making it clear by refering to Afghanistan as "Afghanamastan", but I suppose I could have done better. Unfortunately, the issue was skewed - my usage of the term overshadowed the real issue, which is the dehumanization of our enemies. We have a tendency to look at those we are fighting as less than human. Think about how amazing it is to be a person - the thoughts you have, the feelings, your family - and then think that the people we're killing over in Afghanistan are indeed <b>people</b>. It's easy to go "Well duh, we're not fighting camels over there, of course we're fighting people." But really consider it as you see the pictures of a dead guy laying in the street in Kabul. That was a man, a life... ended. His family will grieve.

Now, he might have been a bad man. He maybe even deserved what he got. But he was still a human being, and I think that we need to recognize this fact and take it into account before we act.

Should we be fighting the war in Afghanistan? Yes, I think we should. I think we need to take strong efforts to dismantle the al Qaeda infrastructure and neutralize the leaders. But there's an attitude that we should be launching nukes all over south Asia to "take 'em all out." This attitude achieves wide appeal only when the masses look at the enemy as unhuman. And that's something we need to fight.

[juju]

Originally posted by LordSludge

Dham is insensitive, and therefore wrong. Bzzzt! Faulty logic.

Profanities != ad hominem attacks. Perhaps a failure of vocabulary, but that's about it.

Using profanities causes other people to think illogically. If hadn'd have been like, "nigger this, and nigger that", then i'd bet money that downside's argument would have been constructed much more intelligently.

Even so, I completely agree with dhamsaic. Well said. :]

[downside]

Thanks for the vote of confidense, I think. While my argument may not have been agreeable with most, I'd like to think that people took time to read the posting rather than just choose the underdog. Therefore, I take Sludges attack as nothing more than someone who needs more time to read.

And although I totally disagree with DumSac (Sorry, I can't remember your real handle. Feel free to masacre mine.), I can say that he has his right to his opinon. As do I. I was giving mine and he was reading his from a book. Whichever. It was his decision.

I think this thread has been burnt to a crisp. I thank everyone who participated and wrote in with true opinion, whether it agreed with me or not.

The end result as that we all seem to feel differently about what happened here. Some are mad, others impressed, and some are just trying to got on with life. I hope, at least, people can agree that any loss of life is horrible, no matter what side. If not, please feel free to start a new thread, as I will like to comment.

Feel free to continue without me.

[Undertoad]

I don't think anybody's mad, are they?

[downside]

UnderToad - Sorry, this doesn't haven anything to do with these threads.

I was wondering about your "Freelancer" tag. What do you do?

I was giving mine and he was reading his from a book.

Actually, my opinion has been formulated and tweaked over the past nine months, having read many pieces and discussed, at great length, what happened on 9/11 and why. I realize that you're simply trying to discredit me by proposing that I am not a thinker, but a follower. Again, I won't take your insults personally.

Some are mad, others impressed

You're obviously referring to me again, which is fine - we were debating. However, I find it particularly absurd that you accuse others of needing "more time to read", but have obviously not read, nor made any attempt to understand, my view that the 9/11 attacks were well planned. I never said that I was impressed - these are words that you are trying to add into my argument to make it look as though I am a terrorist sympathizer. I am not, but I am most certainly capable of remembering what I argued. This sort of shit isn't going to cut it around here, putting words in someone's proverbial mouth. If you're in the habit of doing so, maybe you should lurk for a while before engaging in debate again.

I certainly welcome challenges to my views, and I'm completely supportive of differing opinions. But one thing that is unacceptable in intelligent discussion is "making shit up". All you end up doing is discrediting yourself, especially when you're arguing with someone who knows how to carry themselves in these types of debates.

Welcome to the Cellar.

[Griff]

Originally posted by downside
I'm not doubting it was a good book. But the topic in which he chose to write about seems loose. The equivalent of the book that you are describing would be something like "Earthquakes: Why I Can't Stop Them". Why publish/read a book containing nothing more than a "why we should be punished" theme. But that's another topic.

Johnson was a long time Federal emplyee (Defense and State Depts) who thought he knew how to stop the earthquake. The book was written in the hope that with the end of the Cold War, US comittments overseas would be re-evaluated. During the Presidential election cycle, Bush actually gave folks some hope that that would be the case, with his talk of bringing home troops. Since many conservatives operate under the assumption that where goods cross borders troops don't, it was hoped that economic engagement would replace military engagement. Our window of opportunity is now probably closed. "why we should be punished" is a theme attributed to anyone who doubts the wisdom of turning the legitimate policing action against Al Queda into a wider conflict which has the potential of becoming a major East v West war. If you don't think thats possible, read up on whats happening in Kashmir.

[downside]

Down tiger. You are getting too worked up over this.

There will be many future posts in which I "discredit" the person writing the message. And likewise, I too will be attacked for my posts. It's a part of posting. But you're kind of dragging thison.

Yes, I was talking about you in both lines.

Yes, you've said time and time again how you've read this and you've read that. Now, for some reason, you consider the ideas (that you admit to having read) to be your own?!? That fine too. I don't care.

I'm trying to cut this possibly distructive line of insults. I disagree with you and you disagree with me. There will be plenty of Posts to argue over. This one is getting milked.

[downside]

The above, of course was to the daihsuic guy. Not you Griff. Well put.

I was a little thrown off when you started with "Johnson was a long time Federal emplyee (Defense and State Depts) who thought he knew how to stop the earthquake." I was all excited, since earthquakes are bad. Then you followed up with the other stuff. That's fine, it was just a little more boring than the Earthquake book I was hoping to read.

I response: I will look into Kashmir and see what I can do. I'm pretty busy right now but I'll let you know what I find.

[Undertoad]

[What I do] I'm an internet guy; I do a little bit of everything. Hosting, web design, script development, mailing list management... basically a jack of all trades, "whatever needs doin'" dude. I'm a contractor and a subcontractor and an entrepreneur.

And you?

[downside]

That is quite the package.

I'm a friggin' pinata. I deal mainly with large Host Mainframes (IBM iSeries, Unisys, Unix, etc) and Terminal Emulation. Also, as an additive to these hosts, File Transfer and Host-to-Web applications. Plus, on the side, I am a VB addict (5+ and .NET) and I dig into the Graphic Design area any chance I get.

Mostly tedious stuff, but I suppose it can get exciting.

[Griff]

I understand trade is less exciting than war making, resulting in fewer papers getting sold and folks falling asleep watching Brokaw, but its probably more productive. Thats interesting to me that the cure for earthquakes has to be exciting, it explains alot about peoples fascination with government solutions.

[downside]

No one makes money off of curing Earthquakes.

(note to self: Sell Earthquake Remover in a bottle)

Market trade is where the money is, and thus where the people are. I can do without excitment, as long as I have other people there with me and I'm rich.

What type of work do you do?

[Griff]

Originally posted by downside

What type of work do you do?

Thats a damn good question! I don't really know.... At the moment, I'm building a Post and Beam house, fooling around with farm/garden stuff, outlining a potential novel, and working part-time with friends who do land surveying .

[downside]

J.K. Rowling, Martha Stewart & Bob Vila. All these people just do what they love and people can't get enough of it. That's my dream job.