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Old 09-30-2003, 11:52 PM   #61
JanLocke
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why does the landowner have to set a selling price at all? If they set that price, and someone agrees to it, are they then obligated to sell?
for purposes of establishing a site valuation...

well yes, otherwise it is not a fair valuation - right? determined by the market. otherwise someone could have...

Quote:
structured deal and thus have it valued at $1 for tax purposes?
which wouldn't be fair right? infact it would be fraudulent!
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Old 10-01-2003, 12:12 AM   #62
Undertoad
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Well that sounds extremely unfair. I like my house, and I want to live in it. I don't want to sell it at any price. But now I have to pay higher taxes than my mobile neighbor, who sets a low price and simply moves after delaying things for a few months with his uncle who's a real estate lawyer. Now I have to set a higher price than the market in order to stay here, and pay double taxes, even though I'm more valuable to the neighborhood as a long-time landowner.
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Old 10-01-2003, 02:46 AM   #63
Torrere
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radar
There are no "commons". Other than the idiots who think socialism is a good idea, the vast majority of the world knows that PRIVATE ownership represents freedom while "common ownership" represents oppression, always has and always will.
You are slightly mistaken. The idea of 'common ownership', along with unions, is a reaction to the oppression of private ownership.

It's actually like this:

If I privately own a tract of land, I can do whatever I want within that tract of land. If Joe and I share the tract of land, he can limit my freedoms within that tract of land, because he owns it too. If Joe owns that tract of land entirely, then my freedoms on that tract of land are dependent upon Joe's whim.

Private ownership only represents freedom for the person that owns the land. The person that owns the land can oppress the people that live and work on the land (serfs, slaves, employees, what have you). This leads to bitterness, picketing, unions, revolts, and Communism.

The poeple that work on the land are going to think that their freedoms will be more respected if they have some ownership of the land.
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Old 10-01-2003, 02:48 AM   #64
Whit
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AdanSmith said:
read it and weep...
      First off, thanks Adan, now I can read your viewpoint and judge for myself. As opposed to someone else's take on it. I appreciate it. I did find it interesting that you chose to be a jackass in presenting it. Especially since I was asking for your side of the story. Oh well.
      So anyway, I'm reading from the link and start getting nervous as soon as I'm being told about morality. Then I get this.
Quote:
Rather, because land-titles are generally used as a means of assuming exclusive possession of land without adhering to John Locke's proviso,
So I follow the link to learn about Locke's proviso. and I get this.
Quote:
God made of the world to Adam, and to Noah and his sons, it is very clear that God, as King David says (Psalm 115. 16), "has given the earth to the children of men,"
      Now we're at an impasse. You see, I'm not a christian, I don't give a rat's ass about God, what he did, or his will.
      I also find it interesting you invoke god and Ayn Rand together given her views on religion. Did anyone actually read any of her stuff other than the portion that sounded supportive of your veiwpoint?
      Anyway, I didn't weep, but I did roll my eyes a bit.

      Now on to the current thread.
Quote:
From JanLocke:
which wouldn't be fair right? infact it would be fraudulent!
      Riiiiight, 'cause we know people are always fair... Two things, UT's example is valid legally, though I admit it isn't fair and even if it was legally fraud the people with the cash and power won't get prosecuted.
      So, we have a second impasse. Even if I believed in the ideals, it still doesn't wash with reality. I'm more interested in what is real than what is fair in some imagined Utopia. So, I'll stay here, in the real world. Have fun with your moral superiority.
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Old 10-01-2003, 09:49 AM   #65
ThisOleMiss
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Don't understand this thing with 'the air is free'. Of course the air is free. You can breathe all of mine you want, as long as you do it as an invited guest or from the other side of my property line. You are also welcome to fly over my house any time you'd like, just watch out for the birds and don't disturb the goats. I don't care a bit about the theory that we don't own the land but are only cutodians of it. Screw that theory. I may be just a 'long term renter' but until the day they carry me off this plot feet first, it's mine, and I'm sick of the being subjected to the whims of a bunch of section 8 renters who haven't a clue what they're voting for.

Miss a day on this board and you spend an hour catching up.

Maggie M...
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Old 10-01-2003, 09:52 AM   #66
ThisOleMiss
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Private ownership only represents freedom for the person that owns the land. The person that owns the land can oppress the people that live and work on the land (serfs, slaves, employees, what have you).

Does this mean my goats are oppressed?????

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Old 10-01-2003, 09:57 AM   #67
Radar
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Poor Radar has choosen the false comfort of his neo-libertarian "schoolyard pals"
Man are you barking up the wrong tree with that comment. Also you're straw man argument with yourself was laughable. Don't ever put words in my mouth, especially ignorant ones such as yours.

I'm doing just fine putting you into your place far beneath me. For the record I’ve never “choosen” anything.





Last edited by Radar; 10-01-2003 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 10-01-2003, 10:14 AM   #68
ThisOleMiss
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I'm starting to feel right proud of my role as 'oppresive landowner'. Let's see, my husband and I worked and saved for three years to come up with a down payment for our house in California. Then he retired from the navy, and thanks to an overinflated real estate market, we made what most liberals, lazy people, and other folks of no background or breeding would consider an obscene profit. Never mind that we had been breaking our backs for the last five years to make double payments to get the mortgage paid down. Anyway, we moved back to Mississippi and with the profits from the sale of our home, was able to pay cash for the land we now own. It's ours, free and clear, but, if we ever fail to make a tax payment, it suddenly becomes the property of the government. Where's the justice in that? Not that I'm complaining about paying taxes, although there is a whole list of things I'd rather do than pay taxes (root canal, ingrown toenail, visit from the in-laws) but I conceed that ALL people should pay SOME taxes, and the less the better.

About a month after we bought this place we got a letter from the tax accessor wanting to know what we were planning on doing with the property. Being one of those people who firmly believe it's none of the governments damned business what I do on my own land, I wrote back we were going to open a nudist colony. Haven't heard from them since, but I have the feeling that some poor beurocrat spent the morning looking up millage fees on nudists colonies.

Maggie M...

PS: ignore the spelling, I am dyslesic as hell and have always had
a problem with spelling.

This is sad, a witch who can't spell.
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Old 10-01-2003, 10:31 AM   #69
russotto
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Increasing taxes on rents CHANGES the market; the new market rate will be higher than the old market rate.

Changing property taxes from land+improvements to land is a great way of screwing over the guy with a less-improved lot. If you're looking for a way to take less from the rich and more from the (relatively) poor, that's a great way to do it.
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Old 10-01-2003, 12:48 PM   #70
slang
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThisOleMiss
It's ours, free and clear, but, if we ever fail to make a tax payment, it suddenly becomes the property of the government. Where's the justice in that?
More than likely, you'd have to fail to pay for several years for the Man to take the property.

Even so, I totally agree with you. No one ever really owns anything in America, they lease it.

This is also true with an increasing number of non-real assets. Many states have an excise tax on cars (though I wouldnt live in any of them...again).
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Old 10-01-2003, 12:51 PM   #71
AdanSmith
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Now we're at an impasse. You see, I'm not a christian, I don't give a rat's ass about God, what he did, or his will.
fine I could give a rat's ass either I am agnostic. But it doesn't change the fact that no one made it - right?

impasse...

Is that really all the commentary you can muster here?

Simple question: Are the original classical liberals geo-libertarians or neo-libertarians?

yes or no?
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Old 10-01-2003, 01:00 PM   #72
AdanSmith
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Don't understand this thing with 'the air is free'. Of course the air is free
The question Ms. Magpie is...

Turning the tables on that dope Radar...would we not be better off assigning individual, inalienable equal access rights to air as I have suggested?

Or to continue supporting Radar's communistic scheme of the "air is free" so dump away and we'll try and stop you by bringing a lawsuit against you?

And the survey says Ms. Magpie? (I can't wait for this...)
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Old 10-01-2003, 01:08 PM   #73
AdanSmith
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I'm doing just fine putting you into your place far beneath me
Thank goodness YOUR place will remain in LA-LA land since you will not be moving to the FSP in NH where I am located. The reason why is we are already making plans to have an intelligence (call it a "dope") litmus test at the border and guess who is not going to make it?

are you still sticking to the fallacy, without offering any proof to the contrary, that the original classical liberals were neo-libertarians not geo-libertarians?

one last chance to redeem your soiled pants & honor sir...

Last edited by AdanSmith; 10-01-2003 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 10-01-2003, 01:27 PM   #74
Radar
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New Hampshire is a shithole and a perfect place for a retard such as yourself. I can see you having an IQ test at the border to keep people of superior intellect out so we don't rule you.

Your a communist, a liar, and a thief. May you and your ilk rot in hell.

The FSP was the last chance for freedom in America without bloodshed and dishonest enemies of freedom such as yourself have fucked it up for everyone. People will now die in a bloody revolution thanks to you. I hope you're happy.
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Old 10-01-2003, 01:27 PM   #75
AdanSmith
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my husband and I worked and saved for three years to come up with a down payment for our house in California.
well Ms. Magpie you just paid for all of the uncollected economic scarcity rent that the former owner ripped off from the community before you...how do you feel now?

See you could have bought the property three years before that if a geo-libertarian policy were in place...

Quote:
would consider an obscene profit
no - you got snookered my dear...

Quote:
we moved back to Mississippi and with the profits from the sale of our home
beautiful you ripped off your neighbors in Calif. thanks to Prop 13 and bought a plantation in Mississippi to continue the oppression that has a deep tradition in the south.

Kind of like the movie "Roots" huh?

Quote:
Private ownership only represents freedom for the person that owns the land. The person that owns the land can oppress the people that live and work on the land (serfs, slaves, employees, what have you).
Because the monopoly of government granted privilege called land title allows it to continue so it must be right. It does not matter a lick that we have to LIVE and WORK SOMEWHERE, right?

Quote:
Does this mean my goats are oppressed?????
Since I am assuming you are not charging your goats rent for the privilege of roaming around your nudist plantation - no. I could care less what you do with your goats even if it was legal in LA-LA land and not in the state of Mississippi...you do own them don't you?
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