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Old 02-18-2020, 05:53 PM   #361
Luce
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Here's some of that "free market" goodness.

https://apnews.com/1689fa48a2e177d1f...Bh-BumS1kYy53o
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:57 PM   #362
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He can't even get buy-in from the departments he actually controls as part of the Executive branch. The intelligence community is dead-set against him. Fed agencies are all hoping Congress continues to give them the budget they want instead of the budget he asks for. Trump has not gotten his way on much of that stuff.

Y'all are describing the standard partisanship of our age as Fascism, it's almost like y'all have made the label meaningless over decades of manic hyperbole. You should really save the word for when you actually need it.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:20 PM   #363
henry quirk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luce View Post
Here's some of that "free market" goodness.

https://apnews.com/1689fa48a2e177d1f...Bh-BumS1kYy53o
yeah, just like most of Bruce's links (the ones he pokes me with), yours ain't about free-enterprise or -markets, not as I reckon them

by definition, if gov is involved as anything other than arbiter of last resort, it ain't free
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Last edited by henry quirk; 02-18-2020 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:21 PM   #364
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He can't even get buy-in from the departments he actually controls as part of the Executive branch. The intelligence community is dead-set against him. Fed agencies are all hoping Congress continues to give them the budget they want instead of the budget he asks for. Trump has not gotten his way on much of that stuff.

Y'all are describing the standard partisanship of our age as Fascism, it's almost like y'all have made the label meaningless over decades of manic hyperbole. You should really save the word for when you actually need it.
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Old 02-20-2020, 09:50 AM   #365
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yeah, just like most of Bruce's links (the ones he pokes me with), yours ain't about free-enterprise or -markets, not as I reckon them

by definition, if gov is involved as anything other than arbiter of last resort, it ain't free
There is no such thing as a free market. It's not even possible as described, because if it was, no other system could prevent or supplant it because market forces would prevent that interference.

It's a fairy tale, no different in its connection to reality as "true communism in our lifetime."
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Old 02-20-2020, 09:54 AM   #366
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He can't even get buy-in from the departments he actually controls as part of the Executive branch. The intelligence community is dead-set against him. Fed agencies are all hoping Congress continues to give them the budget they want instead of the budget he asks for. Trump has not gotten his way on much of that stuff.

Y'all are describing the standard partisanship of our age as Fascism, it's almost like y'all have made the label meaningless over decades of manic hyperbole. You should really save the word for when you actually need it.
Just because he isn't good at it doesn't mean he isn't fascist.

Examples:

Wanting to prosecute anyone that said anything bad about him during the impeachment.

Using the "trusted traveler" system as a club to beat New York with, for the purpose of making them stop investigating his taxes. Also defunding bomb-sniffing dogs at ports of entry in NYC for the same reason.

Interfering in the trials and sentencing of his cronies.

Sending "elite" ICE agents to sanctuary cities, which might almost be normal except for the armored vehicles part.

Using the US government to fund his hotels and other personal businesses.

I can go on, if you like.
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Old 02-20-2020, 11:25 AM   #367
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What you have are good examples of poor leadership, overreach, and corruption. And that's what you should call them, because it would strengthen your argument.

Wanting to prosecute? A real fascist, you wouldn't have to base that example on assumed intentions, you'd just see them being prosecuted. Making them stop investigating his taxes? The media wouldn't have to reach hard to turn this example into a quid pro quo; a real fascist would just make it illegal to investigate his taxes.

And so on. You wouldn't have guesses, and oppositional media working overtime to frame things. Your first go-to example wouldn't be he "wanted" to do something. It would be, he DID something.

Both sides engage in this kind of overstatement; is Bernie's proposal to tax investment transactions SoCiAlIsM? Or just another form of taxation?
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Old 02-20-2020, 01:31 PM   #368
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There is no such thing as a free market.

Every time I take a job for a client, find what he's lookin' for, and get paid, it's a free market exchange, so: you're wrong.


It's not even possible as described, because if it was, no other system could prevent or supplant it because market forces would prevent that interference.

That's the dumbest assessment I've heard today. An unrestricted transaction (the foundation for a free market) can be pooched the minute the guy with a big(ger) stick noses his way in.

It would be nice if a free market was the kind of superman you describe, but it's not. It's just people transactin' freely.
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Old 02-20-2020, 01:33 PM   #369
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What you have are good examples of poor leadership, overreach, and corruption. And that's what you should call them, because it would strengthen your argument.

Wanting to prosecute? A real fascist, you wouldn't have to base that example on assumed intentions, you'd just see them being prosecuted. Making them stop investigating his taxes? The media wouldn't have to reach hard to turn this example into a quid pro quo; a real fascist would just make it illegal to investigate his taxes.

And so on. You wouldn't have guesses, and oppositional media working overtime to frame things. Your first go-to example wouldn't be he "wanted" to do something. It would be, he DID something.

Both sides engage in this kind of overstatement; is Bernie's proposal to tax investment transactions SoCiAlIsM? Or just another form of taxation?
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:15 PM   #370
xoxoxoBruce
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Free Market

Oxford
noun
an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Investopedia
The free market is an economic system based on supply and demand with little or no government control. ... Free markets are characterized by a spontaneous and decentralized order of arrangements through which individuals make economic decisions.

In a free market economy, the law of supply and demand, rather than a central government, regulates production and labor. ... For example, while the U.S. allows companies to set prices, and workers negotiate wages, the government establishes parameters, such as minimum wages and antitrust laws, that must be followed.

They both are involved in determining the price and production of goods and services. On one hand, capitalism is focused on the creation of wealth and ownership of capital and factors of production, whereas a free market system is focused on the exchange of wealth, or goods and services.

WIKI
In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities.

How is Joe-small-business going to fight Faceless-megacorp using privilege-monopoly-scarcity without the government?
Sue them? You'd be destitute before their lawyers ink dried.
Fair and impartial Judge? Who chooses him/her? Who pays him/her?
Your utopian vision of free market is doomed from the start without the government clout.
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:45 PM   #371
henry quirk
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How is Joe-small-business going to fight Faceless-megacorp using privilege-monopoly-scarcity without the government?

Currently, this joe-small business (me) ain't havin' that problem. When I do, I'll figure it out then.


Your utopian vision of free market is doomed from the start without the government clout.

No, my sensible notions of free enterpise will work well if the rest of you pussies stop runnin' to big brother every time you get the sniffles. You need it, so it's there; stop needing it, watch it shrink.

As for mega corps: they only last as long as big gov lasts. You want 'corp' de-powered? De-power 'gov'.

Again: nuthin' I suggest will work as things are now (in a controlled nation, with a monstrous government, with a largely domesticated citizenry).

This: a free nation, with minimal watchmen proxies, with self-reliant and -directing citizens is where free enterprise, free markets work.

But we'll never have that...cuz of pussies...cuz of you.
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:45 PM   #372
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What you have are good examples of poor leadership, overreach, and corruption. And that's what you should call them, because it would strengthen your argument.

Wanting to prosecute? A real fascist, you wouldn't have to base that example on assumed intentions, you'd just see them being prosecuted. Making them stop investigating his taxes? The media wouldn't have to reach hard to turn this example into a quid pro quo; a real fascist would just make it illegal to investigate his taxes.

And so on. You wouldn't have guesses, and oppositional media working overtime to frame things. Your first go-to example wouldn't be he "wanted" to do something. It would be, he DID something.

Both sides engage in this kind of overstatement; is Bernie's proposal to tax investment transactions SoCiAlIsM? Or just another form of taxation?
1. You are acting as if fascism occurs the way a light switch operates. Trump is in fact trying to make it defacto illegal to investigate him. Also, the fact that he is not as successful at being a fascist doesn't mean he isn't actually a fascist.

2. Call it what it is. Sanders is in fact a socialist of the Scandinavian school. Trump is a wannabe autocrat.
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:47 PM   #373
henry quirk
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Trump is a wannabe autocrat.

Mebbre so (but probably not). Still not the same as bein' the out & out fascist you keep sayin' he is.
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:53 PM   #374
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Out & out? You mean successful? Trump, try as he might, is not successful at being a fascist, in business, or getting the most votes.
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