The proper role and scope of government

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by classicman

<snip>
As far as how hard it is to get a picture ID. I call MAJOR BS.
Getting a passport is supposedly much harder. I had to accrue my original Birth Certificate
(which I apparently never had) as well as a couple other things.
Sent it away and got the passport in a few weeks. It was a completely painless process.

That is what some of these voter laws are calling for now...
ID's that are the equivalent of a US passport.
Painless maybe, but overly complicated and time consuming

Will everyone know they had to do all that in order to vote,
and will everyone have started the process in time to vote ?
Not likely, and that's what the Republican legislatures are counting on.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

"Voter fraud" is almost non-existant, ...

except where it is hyped as a major crime wave to advance a political agenda. If voter fraud was serious, then he has posted numbers that prove it. He won't. Political agendas are promoted by subjective claims. Such claims without numbers are best called lies.

Of course, we could eliminate 100% voter fraud. It's easy. We all learn to goose step. And we all salute the flag with one arm raised straight up above.

Voter fraud is a crime sufficiently eliminated by following the existing and well proven procedures. But that does not promote bogeymen to inspire and rally extremists.

Actual problem is not voter fraud. The real problem is identity theft. Solving the latter does not create fear and promote a political agenda.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

That is what some of these voter laws are calling for now...
ID's that are the equivalent of a US passport.
Painless maybe, but overly complicated and time consuming

Will everyone have started the process in time to vote ?

Originally Posted by classicman

If it weren't for the political BS that started this, I would agree wholeheartedly with one
having to provide a picture ID to vote.
Perhaps we could agree to do it in the future - say as of the 2016 election.

Sent it away and got the passport in a few weeks. It was a completely painless process.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

That is what some of these voter laws are calling for now...
ID's that are the equivalent of a US passport.
Painless maybe, but overly complicated and time consuming

Will everyone know they had to do all that in order to vote,
and will everyone have started the process in time to vote ?
Not likely, and that's what the Republican legislatures are counting on.

What indication is there that getting necessary paperwork is more difficult for a Democrat than a Republican?

How does this necessitate the big "racism" elephant in the room?

I am not seeing the connection here.

[Stormieweather]

I would guess that the reason this law is suggested to benefit Republicans is that minorities and the poor are less likely to have photo ID's and are more likely to vote Democratic.

Why?

Photo ID's can be costly, time consuming, and sometimes difficult to obtain. Even more so for women.

For example, I cannot renew my driver's license unless I can obtain a copy of my marriage certificate from 30 years ago. I don't even remember where I got married, we did it spur of the moment while on a road trip. The originals are long lost during around-the-world moves. He and I divorced decades ago, but I have to recreate a document trail. So let's assume I know right where to get it, the cost is usually $20 or so for a copy. Then I have to get a copy of the divorce decree as well (but at least I know where to find that one). That's another $20. A certified copy of my birth certificate is $50. There you have $90...and for what? I need a driver's license, but what about grandma? Or an unemployed person who lost their home? Or a student who has recently moved? Are they going to go through the expense and time and effort just to VOTE?

[Lamplighter]

The NY Times today has a 4-page article about a man who investigated Fannie Mae
on his own and found abuses and illegal procedures long before the housing crisis.

There is a lot of repetition in the article, but the gist seems to be that
"mortage servicing companies" were playing lose and fast (an illegally) with their duties and responsibilities.
Investigations by this man and others were given to Fannie Mae, but it is unclear
that the contents of the reports made their way up to the Board of Directors.

It's an interesting read...

NY Times
GRETCHEN MORGENSON
February 4, 2012
A Mortgage Tornado Warning, Unheeded

YEARS before the housing bust — before all those home loans turned sour
and millions of Americans faced foreclosure — a wealthy businessman in Florida set out
to blow the whistle on the mortgage game.

His name is Nye Lavalle, and he first came to attention not in finance but in sports and advertising.
He turned heads in marketing circles by correctly predicting that Nascar and figure skating
would draw huge followings in the 1990s.
But after losing a family home to foreclosure, under what he thought were fishy circumstances,
Mr. Lavalle, founder of a consulting firm called the Sports Marketing Group,
began a new life as a mortgage sleuth. In 2003, when home prices were flying high,
he compiled a dossier of improprieties on one of the giants of the business, Fannie Mae.

In hindsight, what he found looks like a blueprint of today’s foreclosure crisis. Even then, Mr. Lavalle discovered,
some loan-servicing companies that worked for Fannie Mae routinely filed false foreclosure documents,
not unlike the fraudulent paperwork that has since made “robo-signing” a household term.
Even then, he found, the nation’s electronic mortgage registry was playing fast and loose with the law
— something that courts have belatedly recognized, too
<snip>

[Lamplighter]

This is one more reason Libertarian politics ultimately just don't work ...IRL

CBS
February 3, 2012 5:42 PM

Raw Milk Popular In Maryland Despite Being Illegal

WASHINGTON (CBSDC/AP) — The four Maryland residents who became ill
after consuming raw milk have cast a spotlight on the growing popularity the unpasteurized product.

Proponents of raw milk sing its praises despite strong warnings
from public health officials about the potential danger drinking it.
Even presidential candidate Ron Paul has joined the cause of consumers
looking to buy unprocessed “real foods” straight from the farm,
saying government shouldn’t deny them that choice.

Sale of raw milk is prohibited in Maryland, but those seeking its health benefit
make the pilgrimage to Pennsylvania in order to legally purchase it.

An outbreak of campylobacter illness is a reminder of the potential hazards, however.
Raw milk from a dairy in Pennsylvania is now linked to 38 cases in four states,
and the farm has temporarily suspended sales.
Campylobacter can cause diarrhea, cramping, abdominal pain, and fever
and can be life-threatening if it spreads to the bloodstream.

[Lamplighter]

So Obama,,, what have you done for me lately ????

NY Times
By SHAILA DEWAN and NELSON D. SCHWARTZ
2/5/12

Deal Is Closer for a U.S. Plan on Mortgage Relief

<snip>California has been focused on measures that would benefit individual homeowners, while
New York has been most interested in preserving its ability to investigate the root causes of the financial collapse.
<snip>
The biggest remaining holdout, California, has returned to the negotiating table
after a four-month absence, a change of heart that could increase the pot for mortgage relief
nationwide to $25 billion from $19 billion.
Another important potential backer, Attorney General Eric T. Schneiderman of New York,
has also signaled that he sees progress on provisions that prevented him from supporting it in the past.
<snip>
The settlement would require banks to provide billions of dollars in aid to homeowners
who have lost their homes to foreclosure or who are still at risk, after years of failed attempts
by the White House and other government officials to alter the behavior of the biggest banks.

The banks — led by the five biggest mortgage servicers, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase,
Wells Fargo, Citigroup and Ally Financial — want to settle an investigation into abuses
set off in 2010 by evidence that they foreclosed on borrowers with only a cursory examination
of the relevant documents, a practice known as robo-signing.
Four million families have lost their homes to foreclosure since the beginning of 2007.
<snip>
The backers of the latest deal insist their plan has more teeth,
with a powerful outside monitor to oversee enforcement and heavy monetary penalties
if banks fail to live up to commitments.
<snip>

[classicman]

The banks - snip - want to settle

Shock!

The backers of the latest deal insist their plan has more teeth

sure ... I'll believe that when it happens. I'm sure the election year has nothing to do with this diversion...

Oh, and how many convictions of their executives so far?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by classicman

Shock!


sure ... I'll believe that when it happens. I'm sure the election year has nothing to do with this diversion...

Oh, and how many convictions of their executives so far?

Oh, tel un cynique !
.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

This is one more reason Libertarian politics ultimately just don't work ...IRL

I obviously disagree. I drink raw milk and consume homemade yogurt and cheese made from it daily. I do not however buy it from a dairy using the same unsanitary practices as pasteurized homogenized producers. Raw milk cheeses are very popular in France, a place where people actually like actual food. Libertarianism is about taking personal responsibility rather than passing responsibility off on the corporate/government syndicate that controls much of our food production.

One round of cheddar right out of the cellar and the refrigerator stocked with raw milk, homegrown/made eggs, apple sauce, yogurt, cheese and local turkey.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Griff

I obviously disagree. I drink raw milk and consume homemade yogurt and cheese made from it daily. I do not however buy it from a dairy using the same unsanitary practices as pasteurized homogenized producers. Raw milk cheeses are very popular in France, a place where people actually like actual food. Libertarianism is about taking personal responsibility rather than passing responsibility off on the corporate/government syndicate that controls much of our food production.

One round of cheddar right out of the cellar and the refrigerator stocked with raw milk, homegrown/made eggs, apple sauce, yogurt, cheese and local turkey.

(The issue in this specific case is milk; not cheese, not eggs, not other)

Prey tell, how does the consumer take responsibility for the quality of milk they purchase ?

The farmer in Pennsylvania that produced this batch of tainted raw milk was devastated,
wrote a letter of apology to his customers, and offered a refund on the milk they had purchased.
Maybe this farmer took responsibility, and may end up losing his business.

..Still 40+ other people became ill in PA and surrounding states in the first round of infections.
Camplylobacter is infectious (diarrhea) so there well could be a others.
Do you propose those all those primary and secondary infections also take responsibility onto themselves ?

I have absolutely no issue with you (or anyone) disagreeing with me on self-responsibility for themself (only).
I do have issue with it when it can not extend far enough to protect others.
.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Prey tell, how does the consumer take responsibility for the quality of milk they purchase ? Purchase it from a farmer whose operation you can inspect and take your chances.

The farmer in Pennsylvania that produced this batch of tainted raw milk was devastated,
wrote a letter of apology to his customers, and offered a refund on the milk they had purchased.
Maybe this farmer took responsibility, and may end up losing his business. His choice which he has paid for.

..Still 40+ other people became ill in PA and surrounding states in the first round of infections.
Camplylobacter is infectious (diarrhea) so there well could be a others.
Do you propose those all those primary and secondary infections also take responsibility onto themselves ? The primary infections already have. Any secondary infections would only be the result of failure to take universal precautions.

I have absolutely no issue with you (or anyone) disagreeing with me on self-responsibility for themself (only). So you agree that raw milk should be available to those of us who prefer it?
I do have issue with it when it can not extend far enough to protect others. ... or not.
.

Massive outbreak of antimicrobial-resistant salmonellosis traced to pasteurized milk.
Ryan CA, Nickels MK, Hargrett-Bean NT, Potter ME, Endo T, Mayer L, Langkop CW, Gibson C, McDonald RC, Kenney RT, et al.
Source

Division of Bacterial Diseases, Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta, GA 30333.
Abstract

Two waves of antimicrobial-resistant Salmonella typhimurium infections in Illinois totaling over 16 000 culture-confirmed cases were traced to two brands of pasteurized 2% milk produced by a single dairy plant. Salmonellosis was associated with taking antimicrobials before onset of illness. Two surveys to determine the number of persons who were actually affected yielded estimates of 168 791 and 197 581 persons, making this the largest outbreak of salmonellosis ever identified in the United States. The epidemic strain was easily identified because it had a rare antimicrobial resistance pattern and a highly unusual plasmid profile; study of stored isolates showed it had caused clusters of salmonellosis during the previous ten months that may have been related to the same plant, suggesting that the strain had persisted in the plant and repeatedly contaminated milk after pasteurization.

PMID:
3316720
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Maybe we should just ban pasteurized milk as well?
I understand your concern, but you are attacking people's life choices. Some of us are not excited by the idea of a supposedly risk free world bought by a simple exchange of personal liberty/choice. To me, it is very much the same as the War on Terror, there is always a cost for a nominal increase in safety. In this case, we create a (n awful tasting) biological blank slate which, given opportunity, salmonella easily inhabits. This kind of stuff is why rural America votes Republican, despite Democratic protestations that it is against their interests. The left does not understand what other people value or simply dismiss those values as not rational.

[Griff]

or I could be completely off base.

[Lamplighter]

There are two key phrases being overlooked in the above report summary:
"a single dairy plant" and "the strain had persisted in the plant
and repeatedly contaminated milk after pasteurization"

Generally, I would suggest the "after" means "after", not "despite" or "resistant to" pasteurization.
A follow up of that report would be interesting to see if they identified a specific source or procedure that failed.

I quibble with that idea of secondary infections would be due to "failure of universal precautions".
Universal precautions (to me) are hospital procedures.
In the "raw milk" story, such infections could be family members, school mates, etc. and occur before the "primaries" are apparent.

I frown on, but would not prohibit, a family from milking their own goats, cows, etc
for exclusive use of their own family because I assume parents will look
to the best interests of their own children.

But a business has other motivations and selling such a product risks the spread of disease into the public,
even more so if one is advocating NO government oversight such as inspections, testing, etc.