Evolutionary Science-v- Creationism

[beavis]

Originally posted by DanaC
If you mean why as in what caused it fine, but if it's why as in what ultimate reason or purpose was there in this happening....I dont really think there is a why to look at. It happened because it happened. It happened because various events caused other events to happen resulting in a chain of events....there was no purpose behind it.

there may or may not be purpose, who is to say for sure? the point i am making is that the why questions can quickly end up outside the realm of scientific inquiry.

[DanaC]

Well...as I understand it ( and forgive me if this is inaccurate as i am not a physicist) Physics has moved on since Newton was writing. He has provided some of the basics....but it didnt all just end there.

Originally posted by beavis

there may or may not be purpose, who is to say for sure? the point i am making is that the why questions can quickly end up outside the realm of scientific inquiry.

Good. That's what I was advocating. The Why question is outside the realm of scientific inquiry

[Torrere]

Originally posted by Torrere

[Torrere]

I suspect that creationists who "accept microevolution but deny macroevolution" still haven't gotten over the idea that life has been around on the Earth for more than ~6000 years.

[DanaC]

"" from sciencenet.org
Einstein went on to show that light would bend in a gravitational field.

Since light had no mass Newton’s theory could not explain this bending. Einstein’s great contribution was to show that spacetime actually curved due to mass. Like a bowling ball sitting on a rubber sheet, space would curve near the mass but remain reasonably flat farther away. Only if light passed close to the large mass would its path be appreciably deviated. Experiments have now been performed which show that light really does bend near a mass due to the curvature of spacetime.

But this is not the final answer to what gravity is. General relativity cannot be reconciled with quantum mechanics and there is a lot of ongoing research in this field. Gravity is only one of four fundamental forces which are all equally mysterious. The four forces are gravitation, related to mass, electromagnetic, related to the charge of a particle, the strong force and the weak force which are both related to properties of particles in the nucleus. The reason why these forces are linked to certain particles properties is not very well understood. The most promising theory is superstring theory. But until a full theory a quantum gravity is devised the question “what is gravity?’” will remain unanswered."

Fair enough. We dont know ultimately what gravity is.

[lumberjim]

i lost track of this thread, and have not yet taken the time to catch up, but.....

i wanted to drop this little gem into the pot:

I heard an argument for creationism that trumps all arguments against it:

when god created the heavens and the earth, and all of space and time, he created it complete with already ancient fossils and extinct creatures. Even if faced with irrefutable proof of evolution, their faith muscle is so strong, that their grip on their belief will not waver.

i can only express my frustration with it, because they have every right to believe in Genesis. And obviously nothing I say can change their minds.

whatever.

[Elspode]

Yet another reason for me not to be a Christian. C'mon, a deity that plants red herrings, and then fucks you over if you buy his little diversions?

Let's look at this objectively...if you met a person who needed constant praise, someone who would, say, let some poor fucker all but kill his own son in order to prove his loyalty and obedience;someone who would, in fact, procreate, knowing full well that his progeny would be tortured to death; someone who believes that freedom of choice only includes two possible ultimate choices; someone who insists that you do not like anyone better than them...

Wouldn't you avoid this person like the plague because they were *FUCKING INSANE??!!*

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by sycamore

Hey, if you wanna believe in something even though you're wrong, knock yourself out.

Tell that to the Evolutionists!

[OnyxCougar]

Questions for Evoutionists. (I don't expect an answer to these, this is rhetorical.)

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?

14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it?

[DanaC]

What's your point?

oh and

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Itself

[elSicomoro]

If they're rhetorical, then why post them and direct them at Evolutionists?

[DanaC]

Good question Syc! ......Or was that rhetorical?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Questions for Evoutionists. (I don't expect an answer to these, this is rhetorical.)

Well, you're going to get one anyway.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

1) You are presupposing that there is a desire on the part of the plant as well as the ability to judge its own survival needs.

2) Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

It creates improved varieties by producing a variant member of the species with traits that differ from the norm. In theory, beneficial traits improve the survivablility of the variants with the mutation.

As to the letter analogy, that variation is only applicable within a species (or language). Those mutations may give us new words that are more useful. Mutation will not turn a dog into a cat.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Possible? Yes, but there is no evidence of any sort to point to that.

Which raises another question. Why does everyone presume a christian creation myth. Wouldn't it make more sense that an older religion would have more accurate information about creation since it was closer?

Similarities brought about by environmental needs at least make sense.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

Change occurs over time, mutation as well as evolution. As mutations occur, benign or malign, complexity increases. If a malign mutation occurs, evolution may occur to compensate, increasing complexity. As the environment changes, evolution occurs to compensate, increasing complexity.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?

Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

Originally posted by OnyxCougar

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it?

Nobody knows. NO ONE knows. Just to be clear, "no one" means that everyone (as in every person on the planet) is to be included in the group that doesn't know.

I'm sure that someone has a theory that is at least based on information derived from study as opposed to someone simply pulling it out of their ass.

All that being said, no one espousing a religious first cause for anything cannot say so with any authority at all, other than what they derive from inside themselves.

Without evidence of any sort it is simply fiction.

Edit: fixed a typo

[Lady Sidhe]

I have no problem reconciling evolution with creationism. If Deity wants to create the world through evolution, who's to say S/He can't? Seems logical to me. Stir up the soup and see what happens. A science project on the cosmic scale.

Evolution is proven, and in fact, we see it happening even now. I don't believe in all that Six Days of Creation BS. How long is six days to Deity? 60 million years?

We can't prove that Deity exists, but neither can we prove that deity does not exist. We CAN prove evolution, despite the Fundies.


Sidhe

[DanaC]

We can't prove that Deity exists, but neither can we prove that deity does not exist. We CAN prove evolution, despite the Fundies.

Agreed