The Vote: 90 to 9

[tw]

From the NY Times of 8 Nov 2005:

Pentagon Plans Tighter Control of Interrogation
Two department officials said that Vice President Dick Cheney's new chief of staff, David S. Addington, had continued to press senior Pentagon officials to eliminate language from the Geneva Conventions prohibiting "cruel," "humiliating," and "degrading" treatment. Other senior Pentagon and State Department officials, as well as military lawyers and the military's vice chiefs of staff support such language.

Mr. Cheney last Tuesday appealed to Republican senators in a private lunch meeting to exempt the Central Intelligence Agency from similar language that is contained in Mr. McCain's provision.

The defense officials said they believed a compromise version of the contentious directive could eliminate an explicit reference to the Geneva Conventions language and replace it with wording that captured substance of the prohibitions; for example, that humane treatment required provision of food, water, shelter, access to religious worship and a ban on torture.

IOW "god's chosen administration" wants torture to be legal - even though is was only enlisted reservists who performed torture in Abu Ghraid.

Cheney is campaigning to get phrases such as "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment removed so that torture remains acceptable. Why this particular phrase? Because that is the exact phrase from that evil UN Commission of Human Rights. A resolution based on American traditions that date back when religion had no place in politics. Remember those days when Americans feared the Catholic Church might tell Kennedy what to do?

Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
Resolution 3452 adopted by the UN General Assemly of 9 December 1975:
2. Torture constitutes an aggravated and deliberate form of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

That torture is wrong was based upon a document deeply based in American principles- The Universal Declaration of Human Rights approved on 10 December 1948

The Declaration recognizes that the "inherent dignity of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world" and is linked to the recognition of fundamental rights towards which every human being aspires, namely the right to life, liberty and security of person; the right to an adequate standard of living; the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution; the right to own property; the right to freedom of opinion and expression; the right to education, freedom of thought, conscience and religion; and the right to freedom from torture and degrading treatment, among others. These are inherent rights to be enjoyed by all human beings of the global village

You tell me. How is advocating torture any different from proclaiming some people as niggers? Do we just select which principles to honor when convenient? If torture is acceptable, then second class citizens must also be acceptable.

Unfortunately, those evangelicals who support this president also advocate torture. After all, what kind of people create a Spanish Inquisition? People who believe in rule of law? Or those who would promote their religious beliefs imposed on all other people? The Monty Python joke - "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" - was so funny because it was also true.

A House version of the same bill does not include restrictions on torture. Since the George Jr administration approves of torture, then they - especially Cheney - hope to remove the McCain amendment. They believe even some Cellar dwellers advocate torture as a tool in defense of the nation. Just that those evil UN General Assembly Resolutions, Geneva Conventions, and other treaties keep getting in the way of the 'Misson Accomplished' war.

Who are the nine Senators who also approve of torture - who voted against the McCain amendment as demanded by the George Jr administration? Allard (R-CO), Bond (R-MO), Coburn (R-OK), Cochran (R-MS), Cornyn (R-TX), Inhofe (R-OK), Roberts (R-KS), Sessions (R-AL), and Stevens (R-AK).

Let's see. The language is specifically stated in the Geneva Convention and in UN General Assembly resolutions. Therefore it must not be part of US military manuals? Since god did not say so in the bible, then torture must be acceptable? Even Richard Nixon did not attempt to promote what evangelicals should call evil. Makes one wonder if their god really wears a red cape.

When was the last time you heard evangelicals call for impeachment for promoting torture? When was the last time an evanlegical leader proclaimed torture as evil? Even their chosen Vice President fears restrictions on torture - and they are not angry about it. It better be a really nice red cape.

[Elspode]

Won't be long before we're wondering how this sort of thing got added to The Constitution.

TW, for the record, everything is justifiable when God is on your side. We're fortunate to have an administration that is absolutely certain of this.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by tw

Makes one wonder if their god really wears a red cape.

You think they worship superman?

JK

[Trilby]

tw--WTF is in that article? I've no time to read!!
Sum UP, for crissakes! SumUP!!!

[tw]

Originally Posted by Brianna

[What] is in that article? I've no time to read!!
Sum UP, for crissakes! SumUP!!!

An abridged version for Brianna: President Cheney wants torture kept legal since the Senate voted 90 to 9 against him. Cheney wants that vote reversed so that military manuals will permit torture - and dog collars. When was the last time you heard evangelicals call for impeachment for promoting torture? When was the last time an evanlegical leader proclaimed torture as evil? Even their chosen Vice President fears restrictions on torture - and they are not angry about it.

[tw]

Once upon a time, the United States was a land principled in Human Rights, the thoughtful incite of our forefathers, and basic Constitutional guarantees. Now that leaders elected by religious extremists use bibles to justify a Spanish Inquistition overseas, one would think our Congressman would demand these illegal and immoral activities be stopped. NO. Instead we must blame the messenger. From the Washington Post of 8 Nov 2005

Top Republican Leaders Demand Probe Into Prison Leak
A newspaper report that the Central Intelligence Agency had set up secret American prisons in Europe for the interrogation of terrorism suspects drew calls today for investigations into who leaked that information.

... on Capitol Hill, Republican Congressional leaders called for lawmakers to investigate the affair.

Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, the Senate majority leader, and Speaker J. Dennis Hastert of Illinois wrote in a letter to intelligence committee chairmen that leaking such information "could have long-term and far-reaching damaging and dangerous consequences" for the security of the United States.

The letter, to Senator Pat Roberts of Kansas, and his House counterpart, Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, both Republicans, complained that the leaking of classified information by government employees appeared to have increased, "establishing a dangerous trend that, if not addressed swiftly and firmly, likely will worsen."

Funny what happens when the devil runs the US government. Patriots must leak the truth in dark garages. Is George Jr really nothing more than the ghost of Richard Nixon? If so, then how will he top, "I am not a crook". Even Richard Nixon did not lie about torture.

Decent people would rise up to ask, "Why are Senators not investigating themslves for condoning such autrocities?" Oh. It means they must be honest rather than religious extremist. After all, nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. So let's blame the honest messenger instead. Clearly god told George Jr that torture outside United Stated borders is Constitutional.

Note a trend. The president of the US is acting more like Pinochet, Milosevic, and Saddam with every year. Did they have god on their side?

Then this gem at the bottom:

Controversy over the overseas prison network coincides with a debate on Capitol Hill over a measure, sponsored by Senator John S. McCain, Republican of Arizona, that would prohibit cruel and degrading treatment of terrorism suspects.

The administration has complained that the bill is unwise and unnecessary because, as Mr. Bush put it in Panama City, "We do not torture."

And nobody expected the levees to be breached. I guess George Jr white lies are acceptable to god.

To think the Norwegian foreign minister so many years ago warned us that this president would only destroy the Oslo Accords.

[tw]

From the New York Times of 9 Nov 2005

Classified Report Warned on C.I.A.'s Tactics in Interrogation
A classified report issued last year by the Central Intelligence Agency's inspector general warned that interrogation procedures approved by the C.I.A. after the Sept. 11 attacks might violate some provisions of the international Convention Against Torture, current and former intelligence officials say.

... A list of 10 techniques authorized early in 2002 for use against terror suspects included one known as waterboarding, and went well beyond those authorized by the military for use on prisoners of war. ...

The report, by John L. Helgerson, the C.I.A.'s inspector general, did not conclude that the techniques constituted torture, which is also prohibited under American law, the officials said. But Mr. Helgerson did find, the officials said, that the techniques appeared to constitute cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment under the convention.

It meets the defintion of torture even per a UN Resolution approved by the US. And yet somehow it is not torture?

The report continues:

They said the report expressed skepticism about the Bush administration view that any ban on cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment under the treaty does not apply to C.I.A. interrogations because they take place overseas on people who are not citizens of the United States.

... Among the few known documents that address interrogation procedures and that have been made public is an August 2002 legal opinion by the Justice Department, which said that interrogation methods just short of those that might cause pain comparable to "organ failure, impairment of bodily function or even death" could be allowable without being considered torture.

It's not torture if we do it overseas. Therefore, we are not torturing people, according to George Jr in Panama. Reports of what constitutes torture and the existence of overseas interrogation bases are really nothing more than exercises? According to an honest president? Which part of that conclusion is not correct?

[Elspode]

TW...man, the really important issues are where one puts one's penis and where one is at when one is...um...putting it.

Also, anything else having to do with sex is bad, especially if people of the same sex put their stuff in proximity to each other's stuff. In fact, that is *really* important.

Also, killing embryos is bad. Killing children with bombs is merely unfortunate. And killing adults, especially those who are bad, is perfectly acceptable.

In fact, I believe things will go a lot easier for everyone if we'll all just agree with the Right that whatever they say is correct.

Why do you think its called The Right?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Right? Right! You're bloody well right.

[Undertoad]

You got a bloody right to say.

[Trilby]

I gotta fight for my right to paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrtayy!!

[tw]

Originally Posted by Brianna

I gotta fight for my right to paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrtayy!!

Is that the one I carry a card for or the one I get carded at?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Tw, you clearly are not the man who could win the war. The ONE thing you do is complain about the process of winning it. Welcome to Club Seagull -- all they do is eat, shit, squawk, and stand on one leg at the bar.

You do not know how to break the will of an anti-American bigot -- or if you do know how, you're unwilling to do it. Yet, breaking their will is what is required. Let us break it so it stays forever broken.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Tw, you clearly are not the man who could win the war.

You do not know how to break the will of an anti-American bigot -- or if you do know how, you're unwilling to do it. Yet, breaking their will is what is required. Let us break it so it stays forever broken.

My Dear Urbane Guerilla. You preach what we brainwash lowly enlisted men who will never be officer material. Meanwhile, maybe you should start by reading the basics. Sze Tzu makes important comments about always leaving your enemy a way out. One defeats an enemy - not massacre him. But that concept has always been considered too complex for some enlisted men to understand. Nations always need some cannon fodder. Why confuse the lower enlisted men with things they will never understand anyway.

Urbane Guerilla - why do you make it so easy to pick on you? Maybe the answer is found in how you rewrite history when it is convenient - or is that an old wound better forgotten?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Pick on me? You? I should smile. Further, you give no evidence of ever having been military -- I think they'd find you unsuitable from a mental-hygiene point of view. I don't think you have the understanding of it that I do from two enlistments.

And your delusions about my rewriting history remain dearly held delusions. I like it when you keep yourself mentally crippled, though you don't need to be bad to make me good. You see, while it is not prima facie evidence of irrationality or "bonnet bees" to disagree with my views, it is often the not-all-there, bread-not-quite-done who do.

And I note with satisfaction that tw cannot win the war.