The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Politics

Politics Where we learn not to think less of others who don't share our views

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2016, 07:22 PM   #1
Undertoad
Miserable contrarian
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 28,430
Jonathan Pie explains it



Fucking Donald Trump. The left is responsible for this result.

Because the left have now decided that any other opinion, any other way of looking at the world is unacceptable. We don't debate any more, because the left won the cultural war. So if you're on the right, you're a freak. You're evil, you're racist, you're stupid, you are a basket of deplorables. How do you THINK people are going to vote if you talk to them like that? When has anyone ever been PERSUADED by being insulted or labelled?
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2016, 07:38 PM   #2
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 58,034
It's amazing how many chose to be deplorable.
__________________
Everything is interesting... look closer.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2016, 07:54 PM   #3
classicman
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,242
In addition to that, the left severely underestimated how many HATE/D Hillary and also how many didn't want another Bush nor Clinton presidency. History be damned.
__________________
"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt
classicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2016, 09:12 PM   #4
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,012
On the other hand, how many were ever PERSUADED by debate, either? Very few people on either side have any ability to be persuaded at all. This most definitely is the left's fault, but only in that the party leaders ignored the obvious trends in the electorate and chose Hillary over Bernie. I live in red country and I'm here to tell you, no one has a monopoly on calling the other side names.
__________________
My book
My spirit animal
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2016, 11:32 PM   #5
sexobon
^it sings^
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,490
Even people who are fairly thick skinned with regard to name calling can get fed up when it becomes automatic demonizing. People previously called sexist automatically became rapists, people previously called anti-immigration automatically became racists, people previously called pro-gun automatically became killers. That propaganda technique works domestically when it's applied internationally and a rival country automatically becomes the evil empire; but, it backfires when applied domestically to disenfranchise segments of the population.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 07:02 AM   #6
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexobon View Post
Even people who are fairly thick skinned with regard to name calling can get fed up when it becomes automatic demonizing.
Examples.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 08:30 AM   #7
Undertoad
Miserable contrarian
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 28,430
Another Brit has a similar take, Clive Crook: Revenge of the Deplorables

Quote:
The crucial extra ingredient, I think, was the way the case against Trump was framed. Clinton's goal should have been to detach a slice of his support. The best way for her to do that, issue by issue, would have been to acknowledge the particle of truth in his claims, if any, and say why her approach to the problem was better. Instead, she and her supporters refused to grant the validity of any part of Trump's pitch. Even that wasn't enough. Trump was a racist and a fascist, they said. Support him, and you're no better: Either that, or you're an idiot for failing to see it.

Apparently it takes more than four years of college to understand this: You don't get people to see things your way by calling them idiots and racists, or sorting them into baskets of deplorables and pitiables (deserving of sympathy for their moral and intellectual failings). If you can't manage genuine respect for the people whose votes you want, at least try to fake it.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 10:14 AM   #8
sexobon
^it sings^
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Examples.
Examples are in the quote UT provided in post #7.

I'm referring to the wealth of Independents who typically voted Democrat; but, didn't toe the party line in all regards. In those areas where they differed, Independents became collateral damage in the demonizing of Republicans via the Independents' few overlapping views; whereas, they would have been OK with constructive criticism.

Clinton and her hardcore followers took the position of My way; or, the highway. Independents who became collateral damage turned the tables on them. They showed Clinton the highway.

Quote:
Instead, she and her supporters refused to grant the validity of any part of Trump's pitch. Even that wasn't enough. Trump was a racist and a fascist, they said. Support him, and you're no better: Either that, or you're an idiot for failing to see it.
Whether you call everyone who disagrees with you racist, fascist, idiots or children, you put up a wall of disrespect that cuts off your influence with them. When they turn the tables on you, you've gotten what you bargained for. Using that propaganda technique domestically was a losing strategy in the first place.

But Clinton has always been that way. She's just too full of herself to change her approach. Gosh, I sure hope no one here in The Cellar ends up like her.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 11:12 AM   #9
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,012
Just think, if Michelle Obama does run in 2020, the Obamas will have taken what she wanted twice. Then all that needs to happen is for Sasha to outbid her on a summer house in Florida, and Malia to take a job that Chelsea was supposed to get, and finally Chelsea's kid and Malia's kid will be ready to be star-crossed lovers.
__________________
My book
My spirit animal
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 11:20 AM   #10
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 58,034
You imagination is running wild. When Obama leaves office he Will be rich, no need to drag his family into the quagmire of politics.
__________________
Everything is interesting... look closer.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 11:55 AM   #11
classicman
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
Just think, if Michelle Obama does run in 2020, the Obamas will have taken what she wanted twice.
This... Oh my ....
__________________
"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt
classicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 12:50 PM   #12
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 24,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
On the other hand, how many were ever PERSUADED by debate, either? Very few people on either side have any ability to be persuaded at all. This most definitely is the left's fault, but only in that the party leaders ignored the obvious trends in the electorate and chose Hillary over Bernie. I live in red country and I'm here to tell you, no one has a monopoly on calling the other side names.
This.

I don't think Clinton is anywhere near the nightmare she has been portrayed as - the idea that she is the epitome of corruption and deception just doesn't hold water, there are and have been far worse politicians in the US system than Hilary. But what she absolutely is, is establishment. And within the democratic party, the Clinton wing does not offer enough of a different analysis from mainstream republicanism to win over those disillusioned with global capitalism and neo-conservatism.

For years, the right of the democratic party has stomped all over the left on the basis that they are more electable. Socialism maybe a dirty word in America, but in truth it has been applied wholesale to a branch of the party that is far from socialist. The dominant wing of the democrats simple don't offer an alternative and have conspired with the rest of the mainstream political class to demonise anything less than neo-con attitudes as a way of distancing themselves from their 'unelectable' left wing.

Bernie Sanders offered a genuine political alternative, with a genuinely alternative analysis.

I am not saying he would have won - there's truly no way to know - but it would have been a true contest between differing ideologies and political solutions, and there's a whole bunch of people disillusioned enough with the status quo that they might have been willing to listen to that alternative.

This election was not a battle between left and right. It was a battle between a representative of an entrenched political elite and an outsider.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 01:16 PM   #13
sexobon
^it sings^
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
... But what she absolutely is, is establishment. ...
She said "is, is" (*snicker*).
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 07:31 PM   #14
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Another Brit has a similar take, Clive Crook:
Quote:
... Clinton's goal should have been to detach a slice of his support. The best way for her to do that, issue by issue, would have been to acknowledge the particle of truth in his claims, if any, and say why her approach to the problem was better.
Clinton did just that. Large numbers of mainstream Republicans denounced Trump. Some (including Mr Republican George Wills) resigned from the party.

But let's stop ignoring what all these 'after action' pundits still do not understand. Go out into the hinderlands. About half a radio dial is right wing extremists talk show hosts claiming America is dying. No facts say that. Growth that was so destroyed by an administration in 2000-2008 was restored. Companies are hiring. Products are being exported. A massive debt created by the Cheney extremists is being reduced. Hate against minorities was being eliminated. American military is more powerful than the next 5 largest militaries combined. And America is finally telling other allied nations that they first must address issues in their own region. America is not your 911 Policeman. Many are finally getting it.

That is not what the god on AM radio says. Plus, some industries have not innovated in over 40 years. So many workers in rust belt regions are getting screwed by business school graduates (which includes George Jr and The Donald). AM radio gods tell them to blame Washington.

Washington does not create jobs. Never will. Washington can destroy jobs - as George Jr did. But jobs can only be created by innovation.

All that is too complex for many only educated by spin doctor radio. Easier is to blame the establishment. Ironically, nobody seems to notice that. Do they not drive out to the hinderlands to scan the air waves? Apparently not. We know many only believe the first thing they are told. Then get angry or adversarial when a reality is stated later. Out there where jobs are less numerous (especially in the anti-innovation American coal and steel industries), large numbers are so hyped angry as to vote in numbers never before seen.

Out there, logical discussion is rare. Anger and emotions hyped by talk show extremists is about half the radio stations. And so the turnout, driven by emotion, was massive.

Did Donald understand that? Of course not. He simply did what is usually does - demean, attack, and insult others. It played well in the hinderlands where talk show radio says everything is bad - despite facts and numbers that say otherwise.

Easy is to blame Washington using emotion and sound byte logic. Especially when the local media is mostly promoting it. Amazingly, pundits looking for reasons to explain their confusion do not
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 07:49 PM   #15
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 58,034
I agree with tw on this one. It's easier to generate hate with a sound bite than explain reality.
__________________
Everything is interesting... look closer.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.