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Old 12-30-2016, 07:21 AM   #61
Undertoad
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The brilliant Anthony Bourdain explains it

You're a liberal. What should liberals be critiquing their own side for?

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The utter contempt with which privileged Eastern liberals such as myself discuss red-state, gun-country, working-class America as ridiculous and morons and rubes is largely responsible for the upswell of rage and contempt and desire to pull down the temple that we're seeing now...

The self-congratulatory tone of the privileged left—just repeating and repeating and repeating the outrages of the opposition—this does not win hearts and minds. It doesn't change anyone's opinions. It only solidifies them, and makes things worse for all of us. We should be breaking bread with each other, and finding common ground whenever possible. I fear that is not at all what we've done.
A few years back you were on Real Time with Bill Maher and part of the discussion was about people living inside their own bubbles. What do you think of Bill Maher?

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Insufferably smug. Really the worst of the smug, self-congratulatory left. I have a low opinion of him. I did not have an enjoyable experience on his show. Not a show I plan to do again. He's a classic example of the smirking, contemptuous, privileged guy who lives in a bubble. And he is in no way looking to reach outside, or even look outside, of that bubble, in an empathetic way.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:07 AM   #62
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smrt
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:31 PM   #63
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Aw, you're just saying that because he agrees with you.








Me too.
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:31 PM   #64
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I work in a factory with fellow union employees who are conservative republicans and vote republican no matter what, which a lot of times was not in their best interest. (Yet, they would scorn anyone who drove a non Chrysler/Dodge product into the parking lot and even maybe turn it over on its side).

There is absolutely no talking to them about it. None, zip. Its God and country all the way. They are not interested in hearing anything different. I work next to them and sometimes I have tried to say things like since Reagan, unions have been in big trouble because of republican politicians voting yes on bills that are anti-worker/union. These are people who voted republican again even after Indiana passed the right-to-work law. OMG, don't even try to reason with them, they will not listen.

I don't try anymore. Yes, I know I am in my own bubble, and I know that it makes me a big outsider to the people I live and work with. I will not talk at all about my ideas, it gets me in trouble around here.
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Old 12-31-2016, 11:55 AM   #65
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I have had co-workers like that - the Narcissist, a huge one -- and it's the most annoying thing in the world.

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vote republican no matter what, which a lot of times was not in their best interest
I hear this one a lot and I think it's a misinterpretation of how voters operate.

Culture > practical considerations, every time

And here's a very personal example. If Trump gets rid of the H1B Visa program, I will DOUBLE my salary in a year and be basically set for life. This is not a joke. The H1B Visa program has kind of unfairly targeted my area of expertise, and mainly in big metropolitan areas where I am.

In fact it's *one* of the reasons why I wound up shit out of luck a few years back. After the bubble burst we had a combination of 500,000 fewer IT jobs in the country and about 300,000 H1B Visa IT workers still competing for the rest of them.

Ask anyone in a big corporation in the NY/SF metro area. "Oh, the IT department? It's like the UN over there. Indians, Chinese, Russians..."

Now does that mean I should, very obviously and clearly, vote for Trump?

I think you think NOT, right?
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:16 PM   #66
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Exactly how it works for most voters. They seize on one or two issues that directly pertain to them, and dismiss everything else. Even if the candidate only hinted at the issue, or didn't, but their buddy/club/news article said the candidate would.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:04 PM   #67
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Most people seem to believe that "their" candidate secretly agrees with what they believe, and when the candidate claims to be against those beliefs, it's for political reasons or whatever.

To most of my friends, Clinton and Obama were secretly in favor of gay marriage all along. In Clinton's case, right up to 2013.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:34 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
I have had co-workers like that - the Narcissist, a huge one -- and it's the most annoying thing in the world.



I hear this one a lot and I think it's a misinterpretation of how voters operate.

Culture > practical considerations, every time

And here's a very personal example. If Trump gets rid of the H1B Visa program, I will DOUBLE my salary in a year and be basically set for life. This is not a joke. The H1B Visa program has kind of unfairly targeted my area of expertise, and mainly in big metropolitan areas where I am.

In fact it's *one* of the reasons why I wound up shit out of luck a few years back. After the bubble burst we had a combination of 500,000 fewer IT jobs in the country and about 300,000 H1B Visa IT workers still competing for the rest of them.

Ask anyone in a big corporation in the NY/SF metro area. "Oh, the IT department? It's like the UN over there. Indians, Chinese, Russians..."

Now does that mean I should, very obviously and clearly, vote for Trump?

I think you think NOT, right?
Oh God NO! Trump is maybe going to do a lot of business and industry a lot of good....all over the world. Probably mostly for him and his family though. What I don't get is how anyone believes him. Hes already gone against several of his promises. I hope he does get rid of the H1B visa (if just for you). Do you believe he will? Do you believe Trump is not part of the 'establishment', as so many who voted for him, feel? My stepson believes that he will put a 30% tariff on imports, because he said he would. Do think he will be able to do that?
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:05 PM   #69
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My stepson believes that he will put a 30% tariff on imports, because he said he would. Do think he will be able to do that?
Trump has clearly taken lying to a whole new level. However, history demonstrates that people who do this often have significant short term successes. Because they can do the completely opposite. The opposition does not expect it. And supporters of these types of people are willing to accept anything as true.

Reagan cut taxes. He said so. So it must have happened. Reality- taxes increased. But that requires learning facts instead of spin. Reagan increased taxes and got so many to *know* he reduced taxes.

Doing something completely different from what was said creates the element of surprise. One constantly praises Putin and his ego while doing what? Interesting will be if Trump follows through on his lies. Or does what most every informed politicians is saying - Putin is a threat that must be confronted. Will he do so while still praising Putin? Liars play both sides very well. But only for so long.
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Old 01-01-2017, 10:17 PM   #70
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Via the U.S. Constitution, only Congress has the authority to levy tariffs.

~

Trump will not alter the H1B Visa program.

Trump talked to Silicon Valley leaders two weeks ago and he sucked their dicks really hard on TV at the end of it. It was a very surprising, un-Trump moment. (about a minute in, on the video at that link)

I'm pretty certain all they asked was please don't change the H1B Visa program. Please make it bigger, if anything, was what they all said.

And it's fine, really; I don't know for sure, but I think the H1B Visa program improves America. Even if it doesn't improve my particular place in America.

I would not vote for anyone on the basis of what's going to happen to the H1B Visa program and hence I would be considered to be voting "against my best interests".

Guess I'm dumb.
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Old 01-01-2017, 10:25 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Via the U.S. Constitution, only Congress has the authority to levy tariffs.

~

Trump will not alter the H1B Visa program.

Trump talked to Silicon Valley leaders two weeks ago and he sucked their dicks really hard on TV at the end of it. It was a very surprising, un-Trump moment. (about a minute in, on the video at that link)

I'm pretty certain all they asked was please don't change the H1B Visa program. Please make it bigger, if anything, was what they all said.

And it's fine, really; I don't know for sure, but I think the H1B Visa program improves America. Even if it doesn't improve my particular place in America.

I would not vote for anyone on the basis of what's going to happen to the H1B Visa program and hence I would be considered to be voting "against my best interests".

Guess I'm dumb.
In no way, shape or form, do I think you are dumb. As a matter of fact, I love the way you think and the way you express it, and appreciate it. I was not entirely certain of the tone or implication in your post, so my reply may be not that we'll thought out.
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Old 01-01-2017, 10:45 PM   #72
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Thank you P&M! (S'all good, I didn't take it that way!)
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Old 01-02-2017, 07:42 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
The brilliant Anthony Bourdain explains it

You're a liberal. What should liberals be critiquing their own side for?



A few years back you were on Real Time with Bill Maher and part of the discussion was about people living inside their own bubbles. What do you think of Bill Maher?
So I watched an episode of Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown last night. A self-described North East liberal, he went to New Mexico and showed a deep appreciation of culture, food culture, gun culture, rural culture, native culture, Spanish culture, hybrid culture, all culture. When I think about where we are right now in our cultural bubbles, I see this attitude as the cure. I remember civics classes when I was a kid, they celebrated America and Americans. Somewhere along the way our politics lost room for other ways of being. Our diversity could be our strength but the left needs to know that diversity is broader than race and gender, it is cultural.

The pig roast is important as well.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:45 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Pico and ME View Post
(Yet, they would scorn anyone who drove a non Chrysler/Dodge product into the parking lot and even maybe turn it over on its side).
Do they not know Chrysler is owned by Fiat - an Italian company?
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:50 AM   #75
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IMO - Trump is either going to be a disaster or a champion for the country.
Right now, I call it at about 70-30 respectively. Keep in mind I predicted Hillary would win in a landslide.
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