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Old 12-14-2017, 09:38 AM   #1
Undertoad
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Sexual misconduct

I had to unfriend former Dwellar elSicomoro.

He posted that men who are not involved should "say something if they see something". I was moved to say that we gents who are blameless don't really have a job to do here, our job is to just keep being awesome.

His group of yenta friends lept on me in attack. It's always the bad ones who will say something like that, they said, and it was off to the races, no real discussion to be had.

It was their big opportunity to attack in retaliation for god knows what. All I could think is, wow I have woken and angered this pack of apes and now I see them advancing, color in their eyes. Now I'm one of the bad ones. But I can see they love it; and once in ape mode there's no talking to be done. I stuck around and played for a little while, tried to explain how attacking me was absolutely wrong. But once I had "transgressed", forget it.

Sycamore's been an associate since 2001, and came to my 40th birthday party. Unfriended. Because who on this earth needs THAT particular kind of shit in their lives?

(Nobody, and that's why this place is barren now. But I digress.)

~

People have started to call it "virtue signaling" when somebody makes a public proclamation of how they support blah blah blah. I think that's an appropriate tag. Go out and publicly declare yourself good. Shame the Others to demonstrate how Good you are.

But it's the sort of thing Weinstein does -- they all do -- I posted a picture of Weinstein at the pink pussy march, on Syc's thread, to make a point of it. I'm not a predator, I am part of your pack, Weinstein and others are saying. Hunters trick the prey into allowing them to get as close as possible before the killing shot.

Because these public proclamations are NOT for the ears of the predators.

And the behavior of the apes showed it for what it was, as they circled to create and protect the perceived pack from danger. And the danger was....

...me!
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:26 AM   #2
xoxoxoBruce
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This from ElSicamoro who used a succession of women to carry him through life until a bankruptcy forced him to move to another city with sights already set on a woman who lived there whom he hoped would carry him. I understood, but didnít approve, which is why I refused to be his best man. The irony is bright at the sun.

My whole life the lesson from peers, movies, books, TV, even biology class, was the goal in life was sex. Sometimes dressed up as reproduction or survival of the species, even wrapped in morality, marriage, family, missionary position, the bottom line was sex.

From early on I understood the captain of the football teem, movie stars, people with money and power, would attract women like moths to the flame. I was sure that many of the moths were hoping to win the flameís favor but went away singed and bitter. So revelations like Cosby and Weinstein going over the top are not surprising.

For the rest of us it appeared women had the power, were in control, and guys like me would have to do the best we could to win favor sex. We all used the tools we had, and for a few one of those tools was power. Whether the physical power to rape or social power of the paycheck, itís not fair, not right.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:26 AM   #3
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When a bad behavior is extremely ingrained in the culture, calling it out is needed.

Maybe in a specific instance you make the calculation that "saying something" when you "see something" wouldn't be productive, but I don't see why someone would push back against the idea of doing it in abstract.

Maybe I'm too non-confrontational, or too shy, or whatever, to actually do it, but I congratulate those who do. And if I see someone being harassed, and don't say something, I should be ashamed.

"Virtue signalling" is required until the person doing so receives the response "well, of course; obviously", rather than "you think you're better than me!?!?".

Quote:
Because these public proclamations are NOT for the ears of the predators.
No, they're for the ears of the victims who are afraid to speak out. It's fantastic that there's been enough so called "virtue signalling" to bring victims out of the shadows, and attempts to denigrate the victims to vindicate the predators are starting to fall on deaf ears.

Sure, predators will virtue signal, too, as a disguise. But as Wednesday Addams says, homicidal maniacs look like everyone else. That doesn't mean that looking like everyone else is a sign of a homicidal maniac.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:38 PM   #4
tw
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When someone sees a murder and says nothing, then they are complicit in the murder. Same concept applies to other crimes.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
but I don't see why someone would push back against the idea of doing it in abstract
It's the part where he's telling others how to behave. And then getting the praise of your fellow apes for being so virtuous... for actually doing nothing at all

The phrase is "behave yourself" not "behave others". El Sic and, really, all of us, have plenty to address in ourselves. (Including me) And that is where we should focus our energies.

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I'm too non-confrontational, or too shy, or whatever, to actually do it, but I congratulate those who do
Noting/rewarding the positive behavior? That's the correct way to operate, I believe, and is the only way to actually get the behavior we are looking for out of society.

Positive reinforcement: it's how we train our dogs. Let it be how we train our humans, too.

And now,

UnDeRsTaNd that if you had been in that thread, with those apes, and offered your position, they would have attacked you for it.

Too shy to actually say something? Wow, like being shy is your big excuse or something? Someone being nearly raped and you can't even say one word? Now we see where the problem lies. It's you, you've actually been the problem all along. The rapers, they run off instinct, but you are supposed to be better than that - and you know that it's wrong, you admit that, but you say nothing? And you want to congratulate the ones who do say something? WOW!! What do you say in your defense? And by the way, if you don't want to talk about it any more? It's even more clear and obvious proof you're one of the bad ones.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
When someone sees a murder and says nothing, then they are complicit in the murder. Same concept applies to other crimes.
Did you just call HM a rapist?
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:05 PM   #7
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Don't forget the cop trying to come between a feuding couple and gets the shit kicked out of him by both of them.

Seeing a crime committed and saying something isn't even close to seeing something you find morally/socially reprehensible and interfering.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
It's the part where he's telling others how to behave. And then getting the praise of your fellow apes for being so virtuous... for actually doing nothing at all.
The phrase is "behave yourself" not "behave others".
What is the "doing nothing at all" here? Saying something if you see something, or saying that you should say something if you see something?

The latter is more of a "behave others" thing, but it's not a "doing nothing at all" thing. The former is closer to "doing nothing at all", but further from "behave others", especially as a Facebook post not directed at any particular person.

If someone posted "Pay it forward! Do something nice today!", would you be huffy about them dictating your behavior?
Quote:
Noting/rewarding the positive behavior? That's the correct way to operate, I believe, and is the only way to actually get the behavior we are looking for out of society.
Sure, but how does that work when you're "seeing something"? Wait until they stop harassing the victim, and then praise them for stopping? If you praise a dog when they finish ripping up a pillow, that won't help anything.

In my view, we should positively reinforce people who say something when they see something.
Quote:
UnDeRsTaNd that if you had been in that thread, with those apes, and offered your position, they would have attacked you for it.

Too shy to actually say something? Wow, like being shy is your big excuse or something? Someone being nearly raped and you can't even say one word? Now we see where the problem lies. It's you, you've actually been the problem all along. The rapers, they run off instinct, but you are supposed to be better than that - and you know that it's wrong, you admit that, but you say nothing? And you want to congratulate the ones who do say something? WOW!! What do you say in your defense? And by the way, if you don't want to talk about it any more? It's even more clear and obvious proof you're one of the bad ones.
Perhaps. And I would, of course, agree to an extent, since it was explicitly described as a fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
When someone sees a murder and says nothing, then they are complicit in the murder. Same concept applies to other crimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Did you just call HM a rapist?
Thankfully, I haven't witnessed a rape. But if I had, and done nothing, I would be complicit. The non-confrontational/shy thing was a hypothetical. No particular instances come to mind where it has come up, but it's entirely possible that they have, and I didn't notice, or I did notice, but have forgotten, since it didn't affect me personally.

Your 'apes' might very well castigate me for that manifestation of privilege, as well. To which I would reply, "well, of course, obviously". I'm extremely lucky not to be in a situation where I'm likely to be a victim of this sort of thing, and I will have blind spots.
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