Liberating them against their will.

[tw]

Wolfovich went to Iraq to show how Iraq is getting better. He slept in the safest place in all Iraq - and still got attacked. A few more Americans were killed. But daily American deaths are to be expected. They were not acceptable nor predicted when George Jr said this Peral Harbor type invasion would not even cost us money. Some even foolishly believed the lies about aluminum tubes.

Ironic that a State Department one year study predicted everything so accurately. Defense Dept learned about the study about 1 month before the invasion and tried to hire its authors - when some senior Defense Department official learned what they had concluded and had the hirings quashed. Something about not hiring people who did not agree with a preconceived conclusion.

Heaven forbid should we know back then that every month the violence would only increase AND extremists from throughout the Muslim world would join in the attacks.

Tonight on PBS Newhour, reporters in Iraq talk about the body parts and hundreds of wounded throughout todays Baghdad bombings. So who does the Iraqi 'man in the street blame'? Anything American. Those reporters said they barely got out alive counting 27 bricks that struck their windshield alone.

Back at the Al Rashid hotel, the reporter went back up where those rockets were launched 400 yards away from Wolfovich only the night previously. In what is suppose to be the safest zone in Iraq, America still did not have enough troops to patrol that last night launch location. A report starkly similar to news reports from VietNam when another president also lied repeatedly. Reporters back then noted how America just did not have enough people to even protect the most secure locations. How the terrorist could launch attacks at will no matter how many ways the American government twisted the truth - the famous 5 o'clock follies.

Today's 5 bombings should have been six. But one car bomb failed to explode. A Syrian was captured. Is Syria now a terrorist nation? Extremists who lied about WMD and advocated an unauthorized war would blame Syria. We should now invade Syria? And yet what did that State Departement study conclude? As Americans stayed to enforce American doctrine, and worse if with too few troops, then extremists throughout the Muslim world would converge on Iraq to kill Americans.

Remember when Americans were so highly regarded througout the world? Then we elected a mental midget president supported by a cast of right wing religious extremists. The Economist notes the problem and why it becomes more easy to recruit terrorist to attack Americans in Iraq:

from The Economist of 15 Oct 2003
... favourable attitudes to America have crashed in the past two years, especially in Muslim countries. The figure in Indonesia has plummeted from 61% to 15%, in Turkey from 52% to 15%, and in Jordan from 25% to 1%.

Turkey and Jordan have long been some of America's strongest friends among Muslim nations. Even there, George Jr has made you person non-grata.

Three Americans died in the Gaza strip. Why? Was it a coincidence that the Security Council by a wide margin demanded that Israel stop stealing Arab land using a fence (that would put 80% of Palestinians inside Israel). Only an enemy of Arabs - George Jr - used the American veto. George Jr is not an honest broker and hates Arabs - no matter what his right wing rhetoric says. Actions - that veto - says more to all Muslims and Arabs. Thanks to George Jr, extremists are finding it easy to recruit.

That veto again only said to the Arab and Muslim world that America hates them. And so attacks will only continue - Americans will die daily in increasing numbers - until we finally remove an enemy of humanity - George Jr. A man who could not even tell the truth about some aluminum tubes. The man that the Norwegian foreign minister said would undermine the Oslo Accords.

[Michael Roth]

One thing to note, when foriegners attack Americans, they are called 'Terrorists,' yet when Americans attack foriegners, they are called a 'crack team.'

It strikes me as a matter of having a better publicist.

I would rather masturbate with a cheese grater than have GWB as my leader.

[Skunks]

Unfortunately, I've found blood and skin to be difficult to clean from those hand-crank graters, so I guess I'll just have to stick it out for a while yet.



Pardon the insensitivity, but isn't it good that Shrubbie's fucking it up? If, say, he barely scraped along, did stupid shit but then covered it up decently because it wasn't too significant, wouldn't that be worse? The way I see it, every American death that makes it to the mass media is another checkmark against him being reelected.

It strikes me as the difference between intentionally killing schoolchildren and an errant bomb being dropped accidentally on a wedding.

tw's too far gone on this to even respond to. He's impossible to talk politics with, but he's pretty decent when it comes to tech stuff. I'll stick to that.

[Whit]

      Yeah, I'd say this is going to far. And I can't stand Bush.
      I do think that the Arab world will take the veto as proof that Bush personaly hates them, but I don't buy it. Simple following of logic, Bush wants power and money, doesn't really care about the cost to others, he has more to gain this way. A lot of lobbyists will be paying for that veto for awhile yet. I don't think he hates Arabs or Muslims. That would be giving him more credit than I do. I think he's either too short sighted to see the long term or he just doesn't care.
      It would be good that Bush is so far out if it weren't for the number of people that will vote republican to vote republican. Let's face it, the democrats haven't been offering anything of value of late. I'll be voting against Bush myself, but I have little to no hope of voting for someone I want.

      Sidenote to TW: Going on and on about the tubes so often is just coming across as being bitchy now. Let it go. There's way to much other stuff of import to still be focusing on that.

[Michael Roth]

Originally posted by dave
It strikes me as the difference between intentionally killing schoolchildren and an errant bomb being dropped accidentally on a wedding.

In my humble opinion that is akin to comparing children sneaking cookies with teens stealing cars...its a matter of working within your means.

Yes, plenty of car bombs. Lots of primitive weapons. Numerous cheap shots. But when faced with a superior force occupying YOUR home, what would you do?

What a great analogy. How about this, then: the difference between accidentally dropping a vase on the concrete floor and grabbing someone's priceless vase and smashing it on said concrete floor.

The difference is <b>intent</b>. If the US military were massacring citizens intentionally, then perhaps you would have a point. (Hint: they're not, and you don't.)

[Michael Roth]

Your absolutely right. The difference is intent. The GWB war machine intends to enforce its will upon a nation that does not want it there. This is not a new phenomenon...ask anyone of Irish background, and you will get a definite perspective.

When a nation is liberated, there is gratitude. People shaking soldiers hands, kissing them in the street. Not trying to kill them in their sleep.

This, unfortunately is not a matter that can be debated from afar. I am not Iraqi. I did not have to live under Sadam's regime. However I do watch the Machine trample heedlessly like a bully taking a joke too far then shrugging off the blame, "what, what? What did I do wrong?"

Now conversely, Sadam Hussien was a criminal. He needed to be removed from power, WOMD or not. Nepotism was rampant and its effects dangerous. I mean really the whole bloody family was just sick.

I do not have a better solution, luckily I don't need to offer one. I'm a graphic designer, not a political analyst or military consultant. However it does not take a rocket scientist to tell which way the wind is blowing.

Originally posted by Michael Roth
Your absolutely right. The difference is intent. The GWB war machine intends to enforce its will upon a nation that does not want it there.

We can stop right there. Some citizens do, some don't. How about we have them vote on it and see?

I'm sure Saddam would have allowed them that same freedom too.

Now let me ask you honestly, would you rather have GWB as a total dictator or as a democratic president whose power is at least partially checked by both the court system and Congress?

Some will always support a theocracy or a dictatorship, because it's in their best interests. It doesn't make it right.

Many people in Iraq <b>are</b> gracious. Our own Tobiasly served in Iraq this year, and is now (thankfully) (mostly) safe in Kuwait. He can tell you about their gratitude first-hand.

Unfortunately, the very vocal minority shouts louder than the rest. Of course there are people killing US soldiers in Iraq, just as there are people within the United States that support its violent overthrow. That doesn't mean that the majority of either countries is vehemently anti-US. It just means that some are.

(I don't know what's right with Iraq; I personally did not support the war, though I wasn't against it either. I was on the fence. I haven't been convinced of WMD yet, but I am convinced that Iraq will be better off now that they are free from a dictator. What freedom-loving person can honestly say that giving a repressed people a choice is a bad thing?)

[min_mouse152]

OK, listen. I'm only 14 *cough, cough* but when my bus driver turns on NPR on the bus, everyone stops and listens to how many American soldiers have died. A lot of the kids in my school have parents who are in Iraq right now. They are scared out of their minds that the mailman will bring bad news. I do not have any parents in the army, but I wish for my friends' sakes that Mr. Bush would take the soldeirs out of Iraq. The Iraqi people were not bothering anybody. Lots of money this costs. And then Mr. Bush wonders why we are in a reccesion! But I am only a Jr. High student. There is nothing I can do
I don't understand why the soldiers are in Iraq (truthfully). Yeah, they are bad people, blah, blah, blah. We're redeeming the Iraqis blah, blah, blah. But seriously....

[Undertoad]

Ignoring the polls that tell us that the great majority of Iraqis ARE happy and ARE liberated and that this is what they wanted?

[min_mouse152]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Ignoring the polls that tell us that the great majority of Iraqis ARE happy and ARE liberated and that this is what they wanted?

No offence, but I REALLY don't get what this means.

[Michael Roth]

I too wish a safe return for those serving. I cannot fathom the pain in waiting for a loved one to return. And having a choice is a wonderful thing, compared to no choice at all. Now they have their choice...however it was reached. What I do not understand is how the compromise can be reached without letting them figure it out for themselves. Dealing with a different culture stuck in a different mindset from a location remote, dressed in fatigues and carrying weapons is bound to give animosity. I have seen the pictures of the delighted Iraqi children receiving handfuls of ballpoint pens from soldiers, and yes, I think that is remarkable. Something so simple making such an impact...but if simple things change their lives so much, then what are the huge steps going to do to them? There is so much work ahead, and it has to be carefully approached to avoid causing greater problems. Yes, choice is good, but are we prepared to oversee such choices being made without calling the reactionaries ungrateful?

The people serving in Iraq are to be comended, their job is not an easy one. I just wish I could support their being there as much as I wish their safe return.


And with that, I must return to my lurking. Again, I must reiterate that my lack of support for the war itself does not interfere with my support for the men and women who are there trying there best to fix a terrible situation.

[min_mouse152]

Yeah. I agree. Um...it kind of took me 20 tries and a dictionary to understand what you were saying, Mr. Michael. But your right. I'm glad someone else is praying for a safe return of our soldiers.

[tw]

Originally posted by min_mouse152
But your right. I'm glad someone else is praying for a safe return of our soldiers.

And therein lies the heart and purpose of the original post. There is 'no' plan that will bring them home. There is opposition to every plan presented by the world (UN) to solve the problem. There is no US exit strategy. As the commander of the 101st noted, there is not even representation by the Bremmer committee outside of Baghdad - how many months later? No plan. No civilian government. Just a Baghdad bureacracy.

There is no plan for an Iraqi government. There is no trust in the people who knew how to make Saddam's Iraq work (even WWII allies trusted Nazis party members to get the phones and electricity working again). There was a vast mismanagement when the first months were so important.

The honeymoon is over folks. We did not get the electricty on and did not get the government going. Now it is the turn of terrorists - better known as religious liberators. We had our chance to earn their trust. Now we have a simmering pot. Now we have occupied a country with no exit strategy and still no long term plan to get the country running itself. Every terrorist bomb will now be blamed on the Americans - because the honeymoon is over. That is how nation building works (something that George Jr does not believe in).

Those aluminum tubes are 'posterboy' important because of the source who provided that information. Eliminate those same spin doctor news sources that also promoted the aluminum tubes, and we don't have a good situation. Instead, we have a very volatile situation that could go either way. Some here still post what those spin doctors say. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....?"

If one thinks repeated references to those aluminum tubes are being bitchy, then they miss the point. Those aluminum tubes were promoted by the same spin doctors that say all is proceding well in Iraq. Eliminate the propaganda, and what is left is a program for Iraq that is stumbling; lacks direction; failed to recruit (or trust) Iraqis; should have maintained, retrained, and utilized Iraq's army; still has no plans for a civilian government, does not have a solution even to the massive, unprotected sources of ammunition spread all over the country; and cannot even find Saddam!

American popularity is not just falling all over the world. Popluarity is probably at the best it is ever going to be in Iraq - if things keep being this volatile. And we have yet to see Shites join the fray. Terroism south of Baghdad will mean things have gone real bad. Therein lies a benchmark. Where terrorist strike is another measure of how good or bad things have become.

"Joe number one". That was what the president's loyalist would have us believe during VietNam. After all, that is what the little kids were saying - just before they grew up and joined the VietCong. Its called propaganda. Better measure of American popularity is found in what reporters confront in the streets. And they are saying security is faltering through central Iraq.

A plan is needed. That means the micro-management George Jr administration must conceded power to the world. It is the exit strategy to get out of this quagmire since this administrtion has no long term plan, no exit strategy, and will not even admit the mess they got us into.

If one believes Iraq had aluminum tubes, then one should be questioning their sources - those spin doctors. Those same people are the only ones saying everything in Iraq is going just fine - according to plan. What plan? Others are reporting a situation that is not getting better and not getting worse. This is bad news for a nation builder.

What plan? What timetable? That is what reporters asked today in the Rose Garden. The best they could get from George Jr was that he would not answer that second question because it was a trick question. We have neither a plan, nor a timetable, nor an exit strategy. We have a quagmire that could go either way. And those bombings only make things worse - for George Jr's Americans.

What are reporters in the street being told? Under Saddam, the electricity was restored in one month; not six. Under Saddam, there were no terrorist bombings.