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Old 11-20-2013, 08:02 AM   #1
Adak
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Iran Nuclear Negotiations

Peaceful nuclear negotiations are obviously going well:

Iran's Supreme Leader has warned his country will not step back "one iota" from its nuclear rights, as it resumes talks with world powers in Geneva.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25007901
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:54 AM   #2
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"going well" and sadface.

I don't understand why you've put these together, would you explain please?
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:48 PM   #3
Adak
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Originally Posted by BigV View Post
"going well" and sadface.

I don't understand why you've put these together, would you explain please?
Just sarcasm, BigV.

When the REAL ruler of Iran, announces that they won't give "one iota", in any nuclear negotiations, I thought it might be obvious that the "negotiations" are going absolutely nowhere.

WE are the one's negotiating, not Iran. WE are the one's saying the negotiating is "very close" to making a deal. WE are the one's asking for no more sanctions to be put onto Iran. (Obama)

After all these years, if we don't have every sanction possible put onto Iran, it's just because we're too stupid to do it.

Maybe the Iranians will get upset about the sanctions. Maybe they'll have big rallies, chanting "Death to America" (like the one they just had). Maybe they'll even try to build nuclear weapons. You know, like the one's they've built INSIDE A MOUNTAIN.

Gosh! That couldn't happen, could it, Mr. Obama?
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:24 PM   #4
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After all these years, if we don't have every sanction possible put onto Iran, it's just because we're too stupid to do it.
Sanctions aren't imposed by us, they are imposed by a/the collection of nations. Hate to break it to you but there are almost 200 countries in the world, and a number of them don't give a rat's ass what we want.
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:31 PM   #5
tw
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Every successful agreement is ongoing while press rumors hype the end of the world. A perfect example was Richard Holbrooke's negotiated surrender of Milosevic. At the time, nobody had a clue that future Balkan massacres were being averted by the Dayton Accords and Milosevic's all but acknowledged surrender.

We have no idea what is really being discussed in Iran Nuclear negotiations. We do know that George Jr seriously gutted the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty when he virtually exempted India. Barring that serious problem, Iranian nuclear negotiations could have successful results. But again, with so many news reports chock full of wild speculation and Netanyahu preaching extremst rhetoric, then we have no idea how those talks are really proceeding.

We also know Iran, on multiple occasions, attempted to negotiate cooperation with the US on many regional problems - including the removal of Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan. Once George Jr gave that wacky extremist "Axis of Evil" speech, then Iranians in power who were trying to work with the US told US negotiators, blunt and to their faces, "You blew it." The message was clear - except to many in the US who get their news from Fox.

This is the first real conversation between the US and Iran since George Jr extremists and their "Axis of Evil" tirade so poisoned those waters.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:24 AM   #6
Adak
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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Sanctions aren't imposed by us, they are imposed by a/the collection of nations. Hate to break it to you but there are almost 200 countries in the world, and a number of them don't give a rat's ass what we want.
Every nation is free to impose or not impose any sanction.

That includes us.

If you got this dismissive attitude on sale Bruce, please return it.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:47 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by tw View Post
Every successful agreement is ongoing while press rumors hype the end of the world. A perfect example was Richard Holbrooke's negotiated surrender of Milosevic. At the time, nobody had a clue that future Balkan massacres were being averted by the Dayton Accords and Milosevic's all but acknowledged surrender.

We have no idea what is really being discussed in Iran Nuclear negotiations. We do know that George Jr seriously gutted the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty when he virtually exempted India. Barring that serious problem, Iranian nuclear negotiations could have successful results. But again, with so many news reports chock full of wild speculation and Netanyahu preaching extremst rhetoric, then we have no idea how those talks are really proceeding.

We also know Iran, on multiple occasions, attempted to negotiate cooperation with the US on many regional problems - including the removal of Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan. Once George Jr gave that wacky extremist "Axis of Evil" speech, then Iranians in power who were trying to work with the US told US negotiators, blunt and to their faces, "You blew it." The message was clear - except to many in the US who get their news from Fox.

This is the first real conversation between the US and Iran since George Jr extremists and their "Axis of Evil" tirade so poisoned those waters.
Yes, we know about the failings of diplomacy by Bush, but we do also know what's going on in these negotiations.

The French have mentioned a few things. The Iranians won't accept inspections at three facilities, and destruction of their heavy water facility.

You are a student of the Kosovo action? Do you remember what happened to the Dutch soldiers when they secured Srebrenica, and the Serb army demanded they surrender?

The Dutch (U.N.) soldiers were ordered to surrender. Then the Serbs lead the men and boys the Dutch were protecting, out into the forest. The men and boys were all shot, there. The women were raped in the town.

The Dutch soldiers were disarmed, their pants taken away, and they became P.O.W.'s. Not a shot was fired, thanks to the liberal interpretation of "soldier" and "protect", by their commanders. They were soldiers with a liberal and non-violent mandate.

When you walk softly and carry a Teddy Bear, you don't get the same results as when you walk softly, and carry a big stick.

You can see that in the mass graves they've discovered in the forests around Srebrenica, if you need further adjustment to your prejudices. You'll find about 8,000 reasons to change your mind.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:23 AM   #8
xoxoxoBruce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post
Every nation is free to impose or not impose any sanction.

That includes us.
Sanctions 101...
.........USA: Hey Iran, no nukes or we won't buy your oil.
199 others: We will, we will buy oil.
.........USA: Hey guys, we have to stick together.
100 others: Oh all right... sulk sulk.
50 others: No, we won't help the USA bully poor Iran.
49 others: OK, we'll go along with an embargo.... pssst Iran, meet me in the alley.
And that concludes Sanctions 101.

Quote:
If you got this dismissive attitude on sale Bruce, please return it.
I will always be dismissive of people who think they know what's going on with a talk radio education.
Half the time what they think are facts are actually opinions from a source with an agenda.
The other half the facts are right, but they don't have a clue what it means.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:40 AM   #9
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Of course there is a huge black market for oil from Iran. It's also true however, that the sanctions have cut off a huge amount of the financial markets, to Iran. That impinges on some segments of Iran's economy, but not all.

Quote:
I will always be dismissive of people who think they know what's going on with a talk radio education.
Half the time what they think are facts are actually opinions from a source with an agenda.
The other half the facts are right, but they don't have a clue what it means.
Yes, I listen to Roger Hedgecock's radio show. I catch it about twice a week. No, I don't always agree with him, but Hedgecock was the last successful mayor of the city that has now become "Enron by the Sea", after several liberal Mayors ran it into the ground, giving unions a sweetheart deal and a half.

We came within a knife's edge of declaring bankruptcy, and several years later, we're still in serious debt, and still behind in supplying necessary services. Water pipe replacements are still years behind, and periodically, an old one bursts, and these are water mains! Street repairs, etc. are in the same sad shape.

Don't be so presumptuous, Bruce. I took Poly Sci in college, and get most of my news (by far), from the BBC and other net sites. I have a degree, and a lot more experience than you have.

You may not like my opinions, or my posts, but it doesn't mean they're wrong.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:35 AM   #10
Big Sarge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post
You are a student of the Kosovo action? Do you remember what happened to the Dutch soldiers when they secured Srebrenica, and the Serb army demanded they surrender?
That wasn't Kosovo. It was in Bosnia. It was Bosnian Serb (Orthodox Christians) and a few Greek volunteers vs Bosnian Muslims. As reported by Reuters, the government of Serbia was later cleared of the massacre.

In Kosovo, it was Ethnic Albanians (Muslim) primarily killing Serbs (Christians).
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
...Yes, I listen to Roger Hedgecock's radio show....
Adak, I don't think you want to admit to this.

After all, this is a man who:

Quote:
Wikipedia...was not qualified for military service during the Vietnam War for medical reasons.
His severe acne caused him to be rated first 1-Y and later 4-F.
... and should have never held public office:

In
Quote:
1985 Hedgecock was charged with several felonies related to receiving over $350,000
in illegal campaign funds and was forced from office because of the scandal.[5]
All the key players, including Hedgecock's associates and the financier himself,[6]
admitted in sworn statements that they knowingly and willingly broke the law when they
conspired to funnel the money from a wealthy financier into Hedgecock's 1983 mayoral campaign.[7]

Though Hedgecock claimed none of this was true, he pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy
and was found guilty of twelve counts of perjury, related to the alleged failure
to report all campaign contributions.

Since California, like most states, does not allow convicted felons to hold elected office,
Hedgecock was forced to resign on December 5
.
Maybe you need other sources for your discussions.

.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:56 PM   #12
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post
You are a student of the Kosovo action? Do you remember what happened to the Dutch soldiers when they secured Srebrenica, and the Serb army demanded they surrender?
That was completely irrelevant to my comments. Since the Srebrenica massacre was when local European powers were in charge and were screwing to it up. It took another massacre before Clinton finally had a enough and said the Europeans would now do what he said. Once Clinton took over (and the British-French fast reaction forces were deployed), then a solution was quickly negotiated.

Diplomacy was used properly to 'encourage' Milosevic to surrender. Srebrenica happens when powers that be refuse to negotiate a solution and try to solve it with military (ie pathetic safe zone) actions. Actions clearly mocked by the Serbs. Dutch soldiers were sent back without their cloths. And still the powers that be did nothing - militarily or with negotiations.

An Iranian solution is being negotiated from a position of power. What is being traded? Well, we also did not know that an end to the cold war was being negotiated until well after negotiations had been ongoing in great detail.

We know the French went public with complaints of the Iranian negotiations. But we have no idea what the French and all other negotiators were saying at the table. We don't even know if that was only a negotiating tactic by the French. Maybe even planned or encouraged by other parties. We only have speculation.

We know this is the first time Iran has negotiated in earnest with other powers. We don't even know with certainty what they are and are not willing to trade. Since we only have press rumors - not actual confirmed comment from the negotiators sharing a common microphone.

French comments made those negotiations interesting. Also curious is what Israel might be doing to subvert those negotiation.
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:01 AM   #13
Adak
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Originally Posted by Lamplighter View Post
Adak, I don't think you want to admit to this.

After all, this is a man who:



... and should have never held public office:

In

Maybe you need other sources for your discussions.

.
Oh, I have them. I never heard of someone with acne being barred from holding public office, however.

Yes, he was removed from public office, but the actual "crime" was way more of a technicality. Truth is, Roger had money from school bonds and other income, ACTUALLY going to our schools and roads, and fire trucks and infrastructure, instead of going so much to the unions.

Here's an example of the problem. We have a retired head librarian. She made about $104,000 per year, tops, when she was working full time. She makes about $112,000 per year, now in retirement.

How does she make so much in retirement? Because our liberal politicians allowed all the city union workers to BUY years of service. So the librarian bought about 10 years, at a terrific discount over what she gets back, now and for the rest of her life. And her retirement amount can NOT be reduced. Courts already ruled on that.

Most county union workers (fire, police, etc.), have the same arrangement, but our county runs fine, because the county supervisors limit the amounts. The city never did, unfortunately.

In fact, our city council and Mayor told us the liability that the city faced was all manageable, year after year. We asked "How?" and got nothing but political nonsense and lies for answers. Finally, a whistle blower told us the straight facts, and it was "Oh, Shit!". The city came within an inch of going into bankruptcy (they took a vote on it).

If you want the inside look at a striking Conservative politician today, read up on Governor Walker, of Wisconsin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_W...8politician%29

Wikipedia article on him, doesn't tell the whole story, but he's turned Wisconsin business, and the state budget, from bad, to good, in just a few years.

I don't agree with everything Walker believes, but his impact on Wisconsin's economy has been stunning, in spite of the recession.

I had to laugh at Obama's speech as he gave the medal of freedom to Bill Clinton. He talked about how Clinton cut our deficit, and helped improve our economy, etc.

Of course, that was done because the Conservatives in the Congress, had their "Contract with America", and worked hard to make sure those cuts in spending, and those helps to businesses, happened. It wasn't Bill Clinton's idea. He was just smart enough to go along with it, and of course, busy with a certain stain on a blue dress.

It's too bad Obama didn't learn how to get and keep an economy healthy, from watching what Clinton did, during his term.
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:14 AM   #14
Adak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
That was completely irrelevant to my comments. Since the Srebrenica massacre was when local European powers were in charge and were screwing to it up. It took another massacre before Clinton finally had a enough and said the Europeans would now do what he said. Once Clinton took over (and the British-French fast reaction forces were deployed), then a solution was quickly negotiated.
Yes, when you say what you mean, and mean what you say, negotiations can move ahead - if both parties want it.
Quote:
Diplomacy was used properly to 'encourage' Milosevic to surrender. Srebrenica happens when powers that be refuse to negotiate a solution and try to solve it with military (ie pathetic safe zone) actions. Actions clearly mocked by the Serbs. Dutch soldiers were sent back without their cloths. And still the powers that be did nothing - militarily or with negotiations.
Diplomacy hell - the Serb armies surrendered when they were facing superior military strength.

Quote:
An Iranian solution is being negotiated from a position of power. What is being traded? Well, we also did not know that an end to the cold war was being negotiated until well after negotiations had been ongoing in great detail.

We know the French went public with complaints of the Iranian negotiations. But we have no idea what the French and all other negotiators were saying at the table. We don't even know if that was only a negotiating tactic by the French. Maybe even planned or encouraged by other parties. We only have speculation.

We know this is the first time Iran has negotiated in earnest with other powers. We don't even know with certainty what they are and are not willing to trade. Since we only have press rumors - not actual confirmed comment from the negotiators sharing a common microphone.

French comments made those negotiations interesting. Also curious is what Israel might be doing to subvert those negotiation.
Israeli Premier has been with Putin in Russia. Repeated again that he "promises the Iranians will never have nuclear weapons"., at a press conference. He made that very clear!

It's possible the next Israeli leader will feel differently, and both sides will peacefully keep their nuclear weapons (if Iran does get them). Personally, I'm not optimistic that such a "cold war" between Israel and Iran, will be able to take hold and sustain itself. Perhaps when a new Iranian Supreme leader is in place, it might work, who knows?
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:34 AM   #15
Lamplighter
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I'm impressed how easily the interpretations in Adak's postings can change, depending
on whether his intent is praising a "conservative-" or berating "liberal-" theme...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post
...Yes, he was removed from public office, but the actual "crime" was way more of a technicality. ...
Isn't that just another way of saying:
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. ???

Then in his next paragraph we have the concept of an annuity being one of
those loathsome things that he ascribes to "liberal politicians" and "union workers"...

Quote:
Here's an example of the problem. We have a retired head librarian.
She made about $104,000 per year, tops, when she was working full time.
She makes about $112,000 per year, now in retirement.

How does she make so much in retirement?
Because our liberal politicians allowed all the city union workers to BUY years of service.

So the librarian bought about 10 years, at a terrific discount
over what she gets back, now and for the rest of her life.
And her retirement amount can NOT be reduced. Courts already ruled on that.<snip>
Of course, the courts have ruled on it because annuities are designed up to do exactly that.
An annuity can be for as much retirement income "fixed, or for life" as they wish and can afford.

Here is a short video on "annuities"... it's a commercial, but still fair and balanced.

I'm pretty sure even conservatives in private business also buy annuities for their retirement.

It just goes on and on and...
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