Perspective on the US from an expat working in China

[Riddil]

I'll do my best to keep this brief (more from the fact I'm trying to do this during my lunch break, rather than spare the reader my rambling message) ;-)

After living in China for the past 1.5 years on a work assignment for my company, I've gained a lot of insight into how the US is perceived abroad, my owns gripes against my homeland, and even opened my eyes to a lot of the misperceptions of China. (I'll save perspective on China for some other post).

The strangest part is that many of these points I've already known from my time in the US, but actually living this way has really driven the point home.

First part... media. While I miss a few programs, the biggest thing I love being away from is the inundation of media-for-the-masses. I can't tell you how relieved I was to be AWAY from the Anna Nicole and OJ Simpson media frenzies. As an American I felt embarrassed that they were covered at all. While in China I mostly read media from Hong Kong and Australia, and they tend to focus more on issues that really matter. World economy, the war in Iraq, corruption, etc etc. OJ and Anna were a single headline, for a single day, then the world moved on. Whenever I read American headlines I want to scream at every last American, "Are you blind?? Can't you see there are real issues that need attention?"

Which brings me to the 2nd point... the lazy, short-sighted nature of Americans. The rest of the world is catching up... FAST. India, Korea, and China is full of people that are motivated to do whatever it takes to get to the top. In college I was a software guy. Like all software guys I looked on with detest as software projects moved from highly skilled American coders to crappy Indian firms that churned out... crap. But that's not the reality for most out-sourcing. The reality now is that jobs being moved overseas are being done as well or better by younger kids that are DRIVEN to get ahead.

You may get angry when your Dell support agent has a terrible accent. But you don't complain when your neighborhood pizza house sets up an online ordering service built by Indians, and you pay pocket change to have your taxes completed handled online for you... by a guy you never realized was sitting in Mumbai.

The problem is Americans are lazy. They don't want to study hard or work hard. We've built a public education system designed to make no one "feel bad" if they get a low score, so everyone gets A's. In China and Japan, the jocks are the least popular guys in school. If you're the kid that has your name published at the top of the list every year for top score you're the most popular guy in school.

As I interview new engineers in China, I actually have to FIGHT to keep them from trying to work 12+ hours a day. They feel if they don't keep their skills on the cutting edge then they'll fall behind in the industry, and get walked over. And that's the reason why so much R&D isn't done in the US anymore, it's all going overseas. Currently the US has innovation, but how much longer can that keep up as more and more engineering positions move overseas?

Why do we make it so hard for educated people to emigrate to the US, but roll out the red-carpet for poor Mexicans to flood across the border? If we want to stay competitive we NEED to get the educated people moving to the US, not lock them out where they'll build up a competitor overseas.

Third point... the political system is a MESS. Seriously. The system worked fantastically 300 years ago when it was first set up. But in the modern world it's a travesty when you have a mass of Neanderthals able to vote someone into positions of power, and you have special interest groups able to buy political clout to get things put into law.

It's sad that things that should be a no-brainer, like net-neutrality, have to resort to getting a mob of people FIGHTING to keep it from happening? Shouldn't the government be able to realize what's the RIGHT thing to do, and just do it?

I used to think Bill Hicks was a coot. Now I think he was a visionary.

Fourth... not a single item, but a dumping ground for minor gripes...
- American eating habits are awful folks. Seriously. Too big, too greasy.
- We always preach about "family values", but honestly it's the farthest thing from reality. We're only OK at maintaining the core family, but for most people the extended family isn't anything resembling the tight-knit sense of FAMILY that I see in China.
- Seriously, we could tone down on the extremism. If you're Christian stop preaching about how you're being oppressed. If you're atheist, stop crying that the world is shoving religion down your throat. Don't put so much violence and sex on TV, and stop crying about all the violence and sex on TV.
- I HATE TIPPING. It's a stupid system, and it needs to be scrapped. If you're a great waiter, then get a job at a good restaurant, and that place should pay you $20-25 dollars an hour. If you're a crappy waiter and you work at Pizza Hut, then you should earn a lousy $8 an hour. The rest of the world has this figured out. Why not the US?
- Not a gripe, just a comment... don't worry so much about consumption. The rest of the world is just finding something to complain about. The Chinese waste WAY more food than any American, and the Japanese buy WAY more crap.

Hrm... I think that's most of it. I'm sure I've missed a few, but it's good enough. And before anyone tries to yell and scream and tell me to "stay the hell out of America if I hate it so much"....

I DO NOT hate the US. I love my country, and trust me, I'm very much looking forward to moving home in 2008/9. If I list out my complaints about China you will see very clearly that choosing between the two is really no choice at all. The US is great, but seriously, we could stand to do a little more introspective soul-searching about what it takes to keep the country great.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Riddil

First part... media. Whenever I read American headlines I want to scream at every last American, "Are you blind?? Can't you see there are real issues that need attention?"

I agree completely - it is sickening to watch the local or even the national news anymore. The alternative used to be the cable channels, but nowadays they lean so far to one side or the other, its tough to stomach them anymore too. Not just the stations or channels themselves, but also the anchors. They should be required to wear a button or a hat or something that lets you know their political stance. The only alternative for real news is on the net and thats becoming a crapshoot! Getting the information from someone with integrity seems relatively impossible if your views are somewhere in "the middle." If you lean way right - you have Rush, way left log onto kos... On top of that all the misinformation they spew... Very unfortunate. This has and will continue to hurt the US in the long run.

Originally Posted by Riddil

2nd point... the lazy, short-sighted nature of Americans.

The vast majority of Americans are sheep - we are, as a whole, fat & happy. We want what we want and we want it right now. The worst of us seem to have much more than the best in many countries, and have it, relatively speaking, "given to" them. Our system is set up so that no one fails - everyone gets a do over and its all about how it makes you feel, not what it "should be." (no, I am not gonna define should be nor say according to whom. Just a rant.)

Originally Posted by Riddil

Third point... the political system is a MESS. Seriously. ~snip~ it's a travesty when you have a mass of Neanderthals able to vote someone into positions of power, and you have special interest groups able to buy political clout to get things put into law.

Pretty much sums up my opinion on our system of electing leaders. Thank goodness we don't simply use a majority vote - In that respect it could be much worse.

Originally Posted by Riddil

Fourth...
- We always preach about "family values", but honestly it's the farthest thing from reality. We're only OK at maintaining the core family, but for most people the extended family isn't anything resembling the tight-knit sense of FAMILY that I see in China.

Seems no matter how hard I try, even with my own kids, their is always something else to do, or a party, or a school event - something that eats into the time I try to get my family to spend with my parents. The other thing that seems to be a factor here is that we are so much more spread out now. Family is hours away and that makes it so much more difficult to achieve the sense of unity that I would prefer to have. I wonder now, is this a cultural issue or really a degradation of the family unit due to a lack of conviction or values?

Originally Posted by Riddil

If you're Christian stop preaching about how you're being oppressed. If you're atheist, stop crying that the world is shoving religion down your throat.

Amen!!! I have my religion, I'm sure you have yours or a lack thereof (your choice) - It's great that we live in a country that affords us so many choices and options to live and believe openly what we think and believe. I agree that the vocal minority is getting out of hand though. In some cases they need to be heard, but too many times it simply gets glorified and causes more issues than needed.

I find this perspective is very revealing and disheartening at the same time, at least for me it is. It almost ties into several other threads circulating now and some of the things that many of us as Americans are blind to.
Thoughts? Opinions?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

Seems no matter how hard I try, even with my own kids, their is always something else to do, or a party, or a school event - something that eats into the time I try to get my family to spend with my parents. The other thing that seems to be a factor here is that we are so much more spread out now. Family is hours away and that makes it so much more difficult to achieve the sense of unity that I would prefer to have. I wonder now, is this a cultural issue or really a degradation of the family unit due to a lack of conviction or values?

Its a cultural issue. America is much more nomadic when it comes to families than other cultures. I don't know how much I consider this a bad thing though, all the rest I'm pretty much on board with.

[Sundae]

I see the separation of family as a bad thing.
But I was the one to leave - my Grandad, parents, sister and family and brother and wife all live in the same town, he town I grew up in.

But I am daughter to parents who moved 60 miles away from their parents. I am sister to a woman who puts obstacles in the way of family get-togethers, I am sister to a brother who appreciates private in-jokes and I am niece to a man who went to the other side of the world.

[xoxoxoBruce]

"Happiness is having a large, loving, caring, close-knit family in another city."

- George Burns

[Beevee]

A very good read Riddil. I'm surprised you haven't been castigated for it.

As a Canadian (ex Brit) looking in from the outside I would agree with much of what you say but it isn't only the U.S. that has that mentality. Quebec has a high percentage of idle people who believe the world owes them a living.

I have come to the conclusion this mentality arose about 30 years ago when teaching went to the wall. The end result is that todays' crop of students have parents that were not properly educated and consequently have no guidance as it's left to the schools to bring up children and they are out of their scope in trying to do so.

[ZenGum]

Welcome Beevee!

The slacker syndrome is quite common in Australia too. I think the causes are deeper and more complex that just the changes to education, though.
I too am surprised by the lack of strongly worded denials. I guess folks here must be seeing a fair bit of truth in this description, uncomfortable though it must be. And as an ex-pat Australian, I must say 90% of it is 90% true about Australia too.

[Aliantha]

So what this all means is that western cultures should stop taking the piss out of and being scared of eastern cultures and think about some of the positive aspects and bringing them on board?

Or maybe it all just means things are different and different cultures value different things?

Speaking for myself and my family I don't think we could get any more close knit even if we tried. A few of my cousins have moved OS but they come back for xmas and weddings etc and we all still keep in touch. We don't all live in the same town either, but where I live is where the majority of us still reside. I'm closer to one of my cousins that lives in Germany than I am a few that live a lot closer. I think that while the internet and technology has been blamed for breaking down families, I believe it's also good for keeping families together. I agree that most families seem to be falling apart though. I know some people who have never even met their cousins, and I think that is really really weird.

[slang]

I strongly disagree that the notion of tipping is crap!

And....

Yes, China is coming. Don't be fearful though. Because there is nothing at this point that you can do to improve our performance or hinder theirs.

Besides that, they are pretty interesting and friendly people.

Until their navy gets up to speed anyway

The strangest thing of the whole idea of Asia developing is that no one in the US has a real clue what that means for Asia and the US.

Maybe it's just denial.

[Riddil]

Wow, I'm pretty surprised too that I wasn't roasted for my comments. I was sure there were a few opinions that would certainly rile a few people the wrong way. The strongest reaction I got was for my tipping complaint. Not too shabby overall.

But, before I seem too negative about the family thing... I also think that the family structure is changing as a part of necessity. 100's of years ago the life expectancy wasn't very stable. You NEEDED a strong family because if the harvest was bad this year, or your dad suddenly caught the plague then you had to fall back on your extended family just to survive. That's no longer the reality in the modern world.

Also, divorce is a culturally new phenomenon. With the onset of divorce you get REALLY confusing family structures, and step-kids and step-parents aren't ever fully integrated into their new extended families.

I think it's a reality of prosperity and changing times. While I think it's GREAT there are still stories like Aliantha's, the reality is that it's not a common story any more.

So, it may be a little sad for nostalgic reasons, but I still think it's the future. I'm sure in 50 years the Chinese system will mimic the American family. And it's being helped along with the current out-of-control relocation that's going on in China as families splinter and move all over the country to find the best factory to work in.

My point wasn't to say we need to fix it... rather we need to accept the reality that "family values" is something we've moved away from, and in most cases we count ourselves lucky if the immediate family structure isn't in tatters.

Better to accept the reality, than to listen to another politician's sound-bite for how they are "defending American family values".

Pfft.

[Riddil]

Oh, and Slang, I TOTALLY disagree with you about the idea that, "China is coming and there's nothing we can do about it"... (well, I also disagree about the tipping thing, but *shrug*)

I hate speaking in metaphors... but... This really follows a sports metaphor. Just 30 years ago the US was the biggest, baddest team in town. It's parallel to what would happen if your local college basketball team came out and started playing all the High School teams in the area. They'd crush everyone without trying. Occasionally there'd be a close game, but in the end it always ends in victory.

Actually, I don't need to speak metaphorically... this is EXACTLY what happened to the US Olympic basketball team. We used to send our pro's and laugh at the rest of the world as we waltzed to a gold medal. Last time we had to fight to come away with a bronze.

What's true for basketball is also true for business. They're both competition. If you don't pay attention to what your competition is doing you get trounced. It's a defeatist attitude to say, "I guess the rest of the world is getting better. We're just going to lose sometimes. Ah well."

But that's my point overall... American's have, in general, a defeatist attitude. Or if you think "defeatist" is too strong, you can say it's "too accepting" of an attitude.

To be a winner you can't have the mentality, "sometimes everyone wins. I hope it's my turn this time."... you need to be hungry. So while American students are home playing Xbox, Chinese and Japanese students are going to the 2nd session schools. While Asian school systems are finding ways to make the curriculum harder and harder, the American system is finding ways to pad the grades even more, and include more fluff subjects.

Yeah, America won't crumble and fall. But Rome didn't fall in a day either. What's in our future is to become the next England. Everyone knows where we are on the map, and everyone thinks we have funny sounding accents, but we'll be side-lined as the rest of the world calls the shots.

[ZenGum]

On the slacker syndrome, there is another aspect of it which occurred to me after posting. Many people in the west are starting to feel that they have "enough" material wealth, and extra effort is not best put into working more so as to earn and accumulate more. Rather, a greater return is gained from increasing leisure time.
I believe the trendy word for this is down-shifting. I think it is part of the reason for westerners being in general less motivated than others.
When was the last time that westerners faced widespread hunger? The great depression? and before that? Ages ago. We haven't even had a seriously threatening war for 60 years. We've become complacent.
By comparison, China in particular has had many periods of shortage, famine and internal war in the last hundred years. Things are good now but the culture still carries the urgency of the hard times. I think this also explains part of the difference.

Also some people are just plain lazy. Whatchya gonna do?

[ZenGum]

On families, there is also the matter of the shrinking size of families. Previously, families might easily have six or more children, but now this is pretty much the exception. It is easier to keep bonds with your six (19th C) siblings than with your six (21st C) cousins.
And in the past, you had a lot more cousins, too. If you had, say, 30, even if you were in fairly close touch with 10 or so, thats still a big network.
I have one brother, three cousins, two niece/nephews, two step niece/nephews, three step-step nephews ... but I'm only in regular touch with the first on this list. The others are just too distant (socio-psychologically) to feel connected to.

Which brings me back to China. I know the one-child policy is not enforced uniformly, but many people do end up having just one child. These children of course have no siblings, and will have no siblings-in-law. The next generation will have no cousins or aunts or uncles. As Riddil notes, Chinese society has very strong family ties, and also I believe that a lot of Chinese business is done through family connections. I wonder what will become of Chinese society when the long term effects of the one-child policy begin to bite. Any guesses anyone?

[slang]

Originally Posted by Riddil

It's a defeatist attitude to say, "I guess the rest of the world is getting better. We're just going to lose sometimes. Ah well."

First I'd like to say that the mad face for the tipping comment was a joke. I thought it was very funny and laughed for some time after making the post.

What I was trying to do was a part of what the "problem" is here in the US, not taking on the real problems and instead looking at the totally insignificant as a distraction. Even to the point of getting passionate about those insignifcant things.

As for not being able to do anything about China catching up, there isn't much that can be done about the other guy's drive to win the game. If the numbers were even close I'd say....maybe we can beat em'. That's not what I'm thinking now though.

What we need, IMO, is not to beat them at this game but to invent a better game and them beat them at that. The Chinese are surely hungry now and probably will be for many years to come. That's a great thing for them collectively because they have worked for many years to make the gains made in the past 15 years or so. Now they have so much momentum that only they can stop themselves by crashing the machine from within.

What does that mean?

It's not my training or study of societies but I'm guessing that they will fall through the same evolution that the west has. They work, they build, they have more than they need, they get complacent, they decline.

You can tell me how much better life is in the US than in China, I don't know. I'm not talking about the slivers of very rich but for the masses. What percentage of the people are flat broke? How many millions of people would do anything to get ahead? To have a life that is just a fraction of what the middle has here now?

It's my opinion that we arent going to affect that tide of people power in the least. How many Chinese are there? How many Americans ( and I'll say westerners )? The numbers are too great. We need to innovate to the new situation. To create better business arrangements. To scrap or seriously alter those ways that things are done here in the US right now. To re-think learning and working and all productive pursuits.

Not easy, no. We're the God damned United States of effing America for God's sake, we are the innovators! When these times hit the US we come up with better solutions ( for those that accept the new ways ).

I do believe that we'll do well as things get more competetive but not using the "America is the only country in the world" template. Our ways are inefficient and illogical and yet the machine of change here is too slow to compensate for the times.

We need to find different ways to have advantage. Ways that may not even be in the US but may work at making money for Americans.

What are the rules? What are "they" doing? What obstacles do we have? What are the laws, the regs, the methods? How can we outgrow them? How can we invent a better game that we can win at?

It's not a great explaination but that's what I'm looking at. Don't try to beat them, try to come up with a way to work with them that we win ( and they win too ). That's probably not going to happen with a "cookie cutter" old style US company.

[ZenGum]

The history of China, like very many other places, shows a pattern.
Some lean and hungry (usually nomadic) barbarians burst into an old, corrupt, decaying empire, trounce the demoralized armies, establish themselves as the new elite, and after a few generations of energy, lose their vitality to the seductive pleasures of the courtly life. The people become resentful or apathetic, the emperor indolent, indulgent and isolated, the barons squabble among themselves ... then the hoof-beats are heard coming across the border once more.

And so I smile a little every time I see a fat Chinese person. You're getting soft and luxurious, I think to myself. You're no longer lean and hungry. You've got enough to get by and you've got enough to lose that you won't try anything reckless or desperate. You may outdo me in business but you're not going to nuke the world in an ideological rage. I can share a planet with people like this.