The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Current Events

Current Events Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2013, 07:26 PM   #1
Adak
Lecturer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 796
Socialism wins again - Detroit goes Bankrupt!

After 50 years of socialist management, the golden goose has finally dropped dead, and Detroit - at one time our nations 4th largest city, has had to file for bankruptcy.

Hundreds of millions of dollars in debt to the unions, and with just a shell of the city left, Detroit has been judged by the states emergency manager (after they kicked out the Mayor and City Council for incompetence), to have no hope of paying off these debts.

When you raise taxes on businesses - they eventually go elsewhere.

When you raise taxes on individuals - they eventually go elsewhere.

When you don't fight crime in your city - both business and individuals, eventually go elsewhere.

When they leave, they don't come back.

Your city's tax base will take a serious fall in income, and if you keep it up, long enough, your city will be broke.

Next time, Detroit. Try a capitalist fiscal plan, not a socialist one.
Adak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 07:32 PM   #2
ZenGum
Doctor Wtf
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Badelaide, Baustralia
Posts: 12,861
Adak, the decay of Detroit is classic advanced capitalism. A real socialist (by definitions you have previously argued for) would have seized control of the means of production, set artificial prices for the products (mostly cars) and kept people working, however inefficiently.

It's screwed, but it isn't socialism, and never was.
__________________
Shut up and hug. MoreThanPretty, Nov 5, 2008.
Just because I'm nominally polite, does not make me a pussy. Sundae Girl.
ZenGum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 08:08 PM   #3
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 26,125
Read any tw post about why Detroit failed. It's because American cars sucked for way too long compared to the Japanese. The jobs left, and so did many of the people. No people, no tax revenue.

But you want to blame it on the cops and firefighters because that fits your narrative. Too bad, because you were thinking very clearly in a lot of your recent posts on other topics.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 10:10 PM   #4
BigV
Goon Squad Leader
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 24,602
You don't know what the word "socialism" means, do you?
__________________
Also a very stable genius.
BigV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #5
gvidas
Hoodoo Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 283
As long as we're going line by line pointing out the sweeping inaccuracies:

- The mayor announced the bankruptcy.

- The city council didn't get kicked out (but several of them have left, for convoluted reasons of deflated ego / sideline sex scandal / health problems -- and even then, they weren't kicked out, their pay was withheld for not showing up to work in 4 weeks.)

There is a really serious issue re: the ratio of quality of life : taxes assessed.
gvidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:10 AM   #6
Adak
Lecturer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGum View Post
Adak, the decay of Detroit is classic advanced capitalism. A real socialist (by definitions you have previously argued for) would have seized control of the means of production, set artificial prices for the products (mostly cars) and kept people working, however inefficiently.

It's screwed, but it isn't socialism, and never was.
That's what happened, but instead of the politicians doing it by themselves, it was mostly done by the unions.

Crippling strikes forced the companies to cave into their demands, and politicians were forced to cave into the demands of their own employees unions. That kept everyone working, but at a cost that neither the companies nor the city, could afford.
Adak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:26 AM   #7
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV View Post
You don't know what the word "socialism" means, do you?
Bears repeating.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:43 AM   #8
Adak
Lecturer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
Read any tw post about why Detroit failed. It's because American cars sucked for way too long compared to the Japanese. The jobs left, and so did many of the people. No people, no tax revenue.

But you want to blame it on the cops and firefighters because that fits your narrative. Too bad, because you were thinking very clearly in a lot of your recent posts on other topics.
American car makers laughed at the ideas of quality control espoused by William Deming, while the Japanese embraced them whole heartedly, and spent millions implementing them into their factories and plants.

Later, it became apparent that quality control was the only way to go for the US car companies, but the unions resisted many of the changes needed. Also, through a series of crippling strikes, the unions removed a lot of value (money) from the car makers, making it impossible to fully implement the changes needed, to stop the slump the car makers were in.

The big 3 car makers had a management problem, no doubt about that, but the unions were a very powerful force also, at that time.

Last edited by Adak; 07-19-2013 at 02:56 AM.
Adak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:45 AM   #9
Adak
Lecturer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
Bears repeating.
Sure, because if management does it, it's instantly recognized as socialist, but if the unions themselves do it - well that's just fine, fine, fine. Couldn't possibly be socialism at work.
Adak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:48 AM   #10
Adak
Lecturer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvidas View Post
As long as we're going line by line pointing out the sweeping inaccuracies:

- The mayor announced the bankruptcy.

- The city council didn't get kicked out (but several of them have left, for convoluted reasons of deflated ego / sideline sex scandal / health problems -- and even then, they weren't kicked out, their pay was withheld for not showing up to work in 4 weeks.)

There is a really serious issue re: the ratio of quality of life : taxes assessed.
There IS a "so called" Mayor of Detroit (Bing), but he has no financial power. It was Kevyn Orr who filed for Detroit's bankruptcy, but Bing did participate along with Orr, in the announcement of it.

The only person who had any power on this issue, was the emergency manager Kevyn Orr, who was put in place by the Governor. Orr was unable to get the unions to compromise on the debt they are owed by the city, although he did get compromises on debts owed from some major corporations (Bank of America, etc.).

Before these compromises were made, the indebtedness of Detroit was estimated at roughly 20 Billion dollars! The majority of that debt is to the unions pensions - which are outrageous.

Last edited by Adak; 07-19-2013 at 02:55 AM.
Adak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 03:26 AM   #11
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,400
Unions agitating for better pay or working conditions is not the same thing as 'socialism'.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 04:53 AM   #12
Adak
Lecturer
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
Unions agitating for better pay or working conditions is not the same thing as 'socialism'.
When the Unions control production, most of the politicians, and can force huge wages and benefits for themselves, (far beyond the scale of non-union workers), then it's certainly NOT free market capitalism, anymore.

Unions frequently agitate for better pay or working conditions, but in the case of the Detroit auto companies, the unions were able to take control, by initiating crippling strikes, and ensuring their candidate won the election for the city, through large donations.

After they won, of course, they "owed" the union and gave in very readily to demands for higher wages and benefits to city employees.

We had the same problem in my city, which almost forced us into bankruptcy. Ten years later, we're still facing a huge debt, because of it.
Adak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 05:38 AM   #13
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,400
Quote:
When the Unions control production, most of the politicians, and can force huge wages and benefits for themselves, (far beyond the scale of non-union workers), then it's certainly NOT free market capitalism, anymore.
Quote:
When global corporations control production, most of the politicians, and can force low wages and benefits for their industry, (far beyond the scale of independent companies), then it's certainly NOT free market capitalism, anymore.

Apparently, clubbing together resources and influence in order to take control of an entire industry is socialism if those doing it are also those who work in that industry, but free market capitalism if those doing it are the employers in that industry. Ok, I will go with that to a degree, since one of the key notions of socialist communism is that the workers should own the means of production (not that they do in this scenario, but they have been able to exert control over entry to that production). But why is it ok for the employer class to club together into ever larger and more powerful organisations that give them much greater levels of control over every aspect of their industry (and indeed the economic and political system in which it takes place), and dictate wage levels that cripple whole communities, states, countries in order to defend their own interests; but it is not ok that the workforce engage in combination to defend their interests?

If workers enter into the market as 'free agents' with their labour and skills as their property to bargain with, why shouldn't they have the freedom to combine their strength in order to have a stronger property in the market? The corporation/business is owned by someone and they have a right to engage in combination with other corporations/businesses to strengthen their property and value in the market. Unions do not rob them of the value of their property, they defend the value of their own.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/

Last edited by DanaC; 07-19-2013 at 05:51 AM.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 08:13 AM   #14
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post
When the Unions control production, most of the politicians, and can force huge wages and benefits for themselves, (far beyond the scale of non-union workers), then it's certainly NOT free market capitalism, anymore.
When a political agenda is more important than reality, then brainwashing is effective.

Detroit was heavily unionize in the 1950 and 1960s when Detroit was so innovative, became productive, and was profitable. What changed? By the 1970s, all top management was replaced with business school graduates. Top management in Detroit (ie Henry Ford) did not even have a driver's license. Top management was so ignorant that 2x4s were placed under the accelerator of the first Saturn. So that Roger Smith could not press that accelerator. Smith also did not know how to drive a car. So we should blame that on the unions?

Top management technical ignorance in and after the 1970s was so widespread that, for example, no innovation exists in a GM in 30 years unless innovation was required by Federal regulation. GM even had three intermediate sized cars that did not share even one part. Unions did that? Unions stifled design innovation? Business school graduates did. And then blamed the unions, Japanese, unfair trade, taxes, education, environment laws, and virtually everyone else rather than admit who were so anti-American. Their rhetoric and lies are automatically believed by those most easily brainwashed.

An engine that made Honda Accord and Civic the #1 an #2 selling car in America in 1980s (called CVCC) was developed in Ford in 1960 (called stratified charge). A bean counter and anti-American names Henry Ford stifled that innovation because it had three valves per cylinder - would increase costs. A 70 Hp per liter engine that was ready for production in GM in 1975 finally appeared in patriotic American products from Honda and Toyota in 1992.

The new machine tools necessary to make superior innovation was too expensive according to Roger Smith and other bean counters. Many GM cars even today need anti-American V-8 engines. Hate, ignorance, and fear stifles innovation. The dumbest among us then blame others who have nothing to do with those designs - the unions.

Even in the Indianapolis 500, V-8 (obsolete technology) engines are no longer raced. V-8 only exists where people who fear innovation and change (bean counters and wacko extremists) would rather blame others. V-8 is a trophy of those who are most anti-American. And others so brainwashed as to not even know that. The enemies of mankind stifle innovation to protect the status quo.

Why would anyone make a hybrid whose gasoline engine cannot even recharge its battery? Makes no sense to engineers or layman. But makes sense to top management (bean counters) and to others brainwashed by rhetoric. Who do not even have driver's licenses. Unions clearly designed that car? Total nonsense. Only the most brainwashed would recite that stupidity. Corrupt people - bean counters - designed it. And so screwed up the design that it had to be redesigned. Volt took more than 10 years to design. But extremist rhetoric even somehow blames that on the unions. But then knowledge of reality is irrelevant to wacko extremist rhetoric.

How long has this problem existed. We know that William Clay Ford started letting engineers design starting in 2000. Profits started to appear in 2008 and 2010. Ford did not need government loans to survive because, while still losing money massively, William Clay knew products designed by patriots (car guys) would appear some years later.

In 2000, innovators replaced liars (bean counters). We are observe superior products designed by people who have driver's licenses. But that will not change 40 years of hate promoted by bean counters who blame everyone except themselves.

How can Detroit survive when concepts taught in the business schools (communism) and rhetoric believed by the most easily brainwashed (wacko extremists) refuse to admit they are the problem? Why do so many GM products need 2 and 4 extra pistons to do what patriotic cars from Japan, Korea, and Europe do? Unions had nothing to due with people educated in concepts found in communism, mafia, and fear. Reality (and the reason for Detroit's crappy products) is directly traceable to stifled innovation and wacko extremist who would protect such evil.

We are still many years away from patriotic American products (with Chrysler nameplates) designed by Italian engineers. We still have no GM products designed by American engineers. After decades of stifling innovation, Detroit is just another trophy of the business schools Wacko extremist rhetoric would blame everyone else.

Last edited by tw; 07-19-2013 at 08:31 AM.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 09:51 AM   #15
Undertoad
Miserable contrarian
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 29,122
Quibble dep't:

Quote:
Even in the Indianapolis 500, V-8 (obsolete technology) engines are no longer raced.
Only because they made it a rule. Prior to 2011 they were all V8... and all manufactured by H*nda!

Interesting dep't:

Indy engines get 3 mpg, are rebuilt at 1200 miles, and cost about $1M a year per car to lease.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:54 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.