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Old 10-16-2007, 09:08 AM   #1
queequeger
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So we were drunk a few months ago...

and my friends and I were talking politics and philosophy, like usual. Afterward, though, I wrote a little blog about one of my ideas because my friend didn't understand my point (it was probably a little disjointed from all the gin). I just stumbled on it this morning. Wondering if anyone had any thoughts on it?

Quote:
There is an episode, or maybe a movie, of Star Trek: The Next Generation in which there is a group of ailing colonists (or what have you) to which the Enterprise is offering aide. While on the planet surface they are palavering with one of the leaders, and the leader mentions that many people are becoming ill because they have too few blankets for the number of people they must support. To this, the Enterprise crew members are astonished. The idea that there aren’t enough of such simple supplies is something that seems outlandish to them. So, of course they teleport up to their spaceship and replicate a veritable crap-ton of space-aged blankets for the colonists by pushing a button.

ST:TNG is an example of what we (at least I) believe to be an ideal society. One that is a sister, if not distant cousin, to what we currently call socialism or communism. It seems absurd to its citizens that there would be any tired huddled masses. There might be masses, but they’d all have nice space-beds to sleep in and ample seating to avoid ‘huddling.’ It’s awfully simple when you have replicators who make food out of your waste and tennis rackets out of your old gigapets.

The problem and the oddity
It is my firm opinion that socialism would be the ideal form of government. From each his ability, to each his need; or however it goes. However, the main argument against the practicality of such a government is a simple but convincing one: human nature. Humans will put in minimum effort to get what they want. If everyone puts in minimum effort, there will not be enough for those who can contribute nothing (those that any good government is responsible for: the cripples, retarded, old and young who cannot work for themselves). So, the system collapses. Of course communism doesn’t work. Look at Russia! They suck ass!

The Ugg and Mugg example

Every political scientist knows that the reason they can be political scientists, I can be a hippie, and George Bush can be an asshole, is that our move from a hunter-gatherer type society into one that gets its food from cows and farms of mutant tomatoes has freed the manpower. If you’ve not heard this before, I’ll take a moment and explain. If there are 10 people in a hunter gatherer society, all 10 people have the job of survival. Their 9-5 is picking berries that aren’t poisonous and throwing sticks at buffalo trying to kill them. Their free time is, of course, spent fucking and fighting, ignoring their children, and hating people who are different from them, so they have no time to philosophize or make governments. Even if you take out the Shamans, the crippled (if this particular society chooses not to throw sticks at the crippled as well as the buffalos), and the other what-have yous, 9.9 out of 10 savages spend their whole day feeding themselves.

Take the same 10 people in an agricultural society. Ugg discovers that he and Mugg can actually choose where the non-poisonous berries grow, and can keep the buffalo in cages and throw sticks at them at their leisure. So, while Ugg and Mugg grow berries and milk buffalos, Oocha and Hoocha and the rest of the 10 can do other things. Philosophize, make governments, invent a sharper stick, live off of welfare, whatever. So, because we freed up 8 of the 10 (through learning), the society advances as a whole.

Now, this happens even today. Large companies have taken over farms, and with the aid of modern transportation, super huge meat cleavers, and lasers and shit, they’ve come up with a sickeningly efficient version of throwing sticks at buffalos. So now, you have all the food production being done by about .5 or 1 out of 10 people. So Mugg’s ancestors can leave it to Ugg and move on to bigger and better things.

Yes, I know out of work farmers don’t put on a white jacket and operate on people. Mugg didn’t move on, he died sad and out of work. But Mugg’s sacrifice was for the better of society, because Mugg’s kids aren’t farmers anymore. They’ve put on the surgical mask, or maybe they make the surgical mask, or maybe they’re the gangbanger who shot the patient. Either way they’re contributing to our Gross Net Society Profit.

Ugg-bot 2.0

Now, let’s take Ugg the farmer, put him in one of those ridiculous rubber suits that Tony Hawk used to mimic himself on Tony Hawk’s Pro Sk8r. Let’s take everything he does and run it by computer. Call it Farmertron. Let’s do the same for the janitor, the blanket maker, the Wal-Mart employee, the Post Office employee (as if they weren’t robots already). Now what we’re looking at is effectively labor-free everything. The only real jobs we need are the ones maintaining the Ugg-bots and the Muggotrons. So, with technology the work that was done by 9.9/10 is now done by .1/10.

But wait, Ugg, Mugg, Oocha, and the whole gang are jobless? We can’t have layabouts! What the hell, are you trying to create a welfare state? Put down the GOP digest for two seconds and think about it. At least one or two out of every 100 people has the desire to make robots and program computers. They could provide the basics of life for the other 98 in this Star Trek: Ugg Frontier.

You remember being asked by your guidance councilor ‘what would you do for a living if you could do anything?’ That’s what this is. Study biomechanics, write poetry, run up and down a field carrying the skin of a dead animal while hitting other large men, maintain the Uggbots if that’s what you enjoy. Fuck, build shit out of clay for all I care just get out of my office. There will be one or two people who’s dream job is robotics and computers to maintain the Farmertron fleet.

How does this tie in with socialism, you fucking hippie?

People love to be lazy. Technology lets us do this. We’ve seen offices become more efficient with computers, we’ve seen surgery become more precise with lasers, and we’ve seen Darnell pimp hoes faster than previously imaginable with his new iPhone. Technology improves the Gross Net Society Product at exponential levels.

So, when we develop sufficient technology, and actually devote ourselves to advancement of political theory (as a people, not just bored folks like me), we will create a system of socialism that, with the aide of robot blanket-makers, food-makers, and giant-plasma-screen-TV-makers, will see to it that humans can put in the minimum effort they so love, and no longer feel they need everything in the world. Because for all intents and purposes, they’ll have it.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:25 AM   #2
piercehawkeye45
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This isn't really related but the hunter-gatherer part is is wrong. There have been studies that have shown that hunter-gatherers only spent 14 hours a week looking for food, lived healthier than the early agricultural societies (food diversity), and were decently peaceful people. They didn't philosophize about governments because they had no need too until their population reached a certain size and they had to make the switch.

Don't let the title of this article fool you, it makes some very good points.

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/...t_mistake.html


The second thing I disagree with is that people love to be lazy. I think you are taking a very English-centric view on that. English culture, which is highly influenced in American culture, is pretty laid back, nomadic beginnings I'm assuming, so it natural for our culture to seem lazy, but if you look at other cultures it is much different.

But I don't think that being lazy or not lazy will make or break socialism, there have to be other social factors.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:29 AM   #3
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I like this one, I endorse it.

There are some, I think, who would say this has already happened in many places, except that cheap Chinese laborers are easier to find than expensive computer/robotic maintenance people.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:44 AM   #4
ZenGum
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Innnnteresting....

I agree about both the attraction and fundamental flaw of socialism. Pity we're such selfish lazy buggers isn't it?

Regarding specialization, I recall reading some futurist predictions made (I think by Arthur C Clark) back in the 1950s, in a similar vein. He argued that as technology takes over more and more of what needs doing, people we have less and less to do. We will eventually need to "uninvent" work.

In some respects we are getting there already: a large number of people are doing things that don't need to be done, certainly not for simple survival. Sit-com continuity checkers, for an extreme example. But consider Maslow's hierarchy of needs; our needs do not stop with food and blankets.

So when you claim that robots will deliver all of our needs, you'll have to include things like counselors, teachers, doctors, and so on. We're talking about some amazing robots, with skills in understanding humans, empathizing, decision making, taking responsibility... I think that is possible, but only by very advanced, complicated robots. And by the time robots have got that advanced, we're going to have to start treating them as, if not full persons, as creatures with interests and needs to be addressed. Robot liberation will become as morally pressing as slave emancipation.

So, this path might deliver something approaching socialism, but only socialism for the privileged few, the humans. Beneath that stratum, the robots will be toiling away ...
Maybe you will say, but they will either not notice anything is odd (like dumb machines nowadays) or will be programmed to like serving. But I don't believe that we can get the level of autonomous decision making necessary for a robo-doctor or robo-teacher, without giving them a very human-like psychology. And there, I think, lies the flaw in this possible future. The robots will become selfish.
You've seen Terminator. Maybe you've read H.G. Wells' The Time Machine. I greatly doubt the viability of any utopian future based on exploiting a naturally subservient class.

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Old 10-16-2007, 11:22 AM   #5
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HAHAHA! I really didn't expect THAT response, Zen. Hmmm.... the I, robot problem. Well, as part of my idea (not as spelled out) I think duties that require that human touch will still need to be done by humans. I also think that most people will WANT to work. Even though the wifey and I agreed that should the kid-thing happen, I'd stay at home... I know I'd go nuts with nothing to do. (i.e. a maslow-like need).

And pierce, I don't think this is geared just toward an American or English culture. Minimum output for maximum yield has always been the case, it's almost a biological or evolutionary imperative. That article you posted (for which I'm very busily looking for others of similar conclusion because it seems interesting) stated just that. The gatherers didn't want to work more because they were doing just fine with their mongogo nuts or whatever they were called.

The Asimov point still has me chuckling, btw Zen. Thanks for that.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:30 AM   #6
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I'm going to offer a brief counter point to all this and at the same time try not to look like an ass. This is going to be a trick.

First of all, if it were possible to reach a 'workless' society, it isn't one that I would want to live in. Without any sort of struggle, without someone getting the short end of the stick, there isn't any reason left to innovate. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the innovators felt inclined (even though there's no real benefit to them personally in a socialist society) to keep improving things for everyone else even though pretty much everyone was getting fed by food bots or smoking weed all day or something. That wouldn't last long -- look at Atlas Shrugged. You can only fuck with the people with brains in your society for so long before they get really pissed off and demand that they get more than their 'fair' share, because they're doing a hell of a lot more work on improving society than John Q Layabout. If what you were saying was feasible, you would have a capitalist society still, but one that would lean towards a technocratic bent. One in which it's believed that technology solves anything so the people that can create and maintain the technology are the ones who end up rich.

Another problem with this is resources, for which I'll cite Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Say you have two rats in a box and you feed them 500 kilos of food a day. A hell of a lot for two rats. At the end of everyday, you take out what the rats haven't eaten and replace it with a new 500 k block every morning. Now, your rats are going to multiply like fucking crazy because they've got the food to do it, but eventually you're going to have a set number of rats, say about 1000 or something. You'll notice that the older rats die off to make way for new young and your population will stay at about 1000 rats.

Now, double the amount of food you give them each morning. What do you think will happen? The rats will double. Now, imagine letting the rats somehow control their food amount. Do you think they would choose to limit it? Unlikely, they'll just keep spreading until you have nothing but rats everywhere and eventually, not enough food.

Okay. The rats are people. As it is now, we control our own food source through agriculture to a certain point. Yes, we still have starving people, but our population simply doubles and doubles and doubles. And think, even those starving people eat food, though it may be scattered and hard to acquire because otherwise they wouldn't be starving -- they would be dead. So, if you created a 'foodbot' that just synthesized food out of something, (because of the way physics work, you'd have to use something, I doubt we'll ever have the ability to spontaneously create matter out of a void) people are going to eat and fuck until whatever it is that we're using to make food, no matter how common and available it is, will run out.

Of course, it would never reach that point. As soon as things were starting to run a little low and food was becoming a problem, the scientists and people who were making society function would either force the gluttonous society off its ass and get it put to work solving the problem, or annihilate them altogether.

Even introducing some sort of nano-fail proof birth control, you'll still have lazy folks just sucking up welfare or what have you and popping out kids left and right, doing nothing at all to make the world better. Any reasonable working person is going to see that what they're working for is bullshit and stop.

What I'm trying to get at here is that for decades socialism has seemed like some sort of noble ideal that human nature isn't quite ready for. I would like to see that come to an end. Socialism is stagnation, plain and simple. Stagnation of creativity, stagnation of innovation, stagnation of soul. Free market capitalism works -- people who work hard get paid well for it. Why should it be otherwise?

So rather than the crew of Star Trek being budding socialists I think it would have been far more likely that they had the resources and just weren't dicks. Share, if you have it. I have no problem with that. But, if I'm working harder than anyone else, recognize me for it.

Fuuuuuuuuuuck. That was long, sorry folks. Communism/socialism/etc. is just sort of a hot button issue for me.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:42 AM   #7
queequeger
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Two points.

First, I'm not talking about a jobless society. I'm talking about removing menial tasks. So everyone would still work and contribute, but it would be by doing something that doesn't suck really bad.

Second, and I don't know if this will sound disenchanted or what (probably will) but I haven't seen one iota of evidence that we live in a society that rewards hard work. We reward looks, luck, and cutthroat behavior. I can't imagine anyone that works hard enough to justify more than 2 or 300 thousand dollars a year and they better be working DAMNED hard. Instead we have people making MILLIONS for playing a game. Literally. We have people in superfluous management positions who make literally 50, or a hundred times more than the people that actually make the company work. Even more than that if you play stocks. You produce literally nothing and make the most out of anyone.

And finally, I do believe (and didn't suggest otherwise) that people should still get compensated respectively. I'm all for socialist capitalism. You still have to work, and you still make more/less money than your neighbor, but you don't have to worry about your necessities.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:42 AM   #8
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One little anecdote on QQG's reply to Pierce about the universality of laziness ... In the 1950s/60s US foreign aid folks introduced modern rice strains into Laos and Cambodia, which produced three times as much yield per hectare. The locals loved it. The foreigners rather anticipated much bigger yields, growing wealth, social development. Nah, the locals just cultivated 60% less area, and got the same yield for less work.
My vague, undocumented, not-rigorously-researched general opinion is that Western European/ North American culture is one of the least lazy. Japan, some parts of China, and the West ...
I wonder if climate affects this. In higher-latitude climates, you have to work hard during the growing season or you'll starve in the winter, and cultures that adapt to that will have a strong work ethic.
In low-latitude climates, the growing season is year round, so living pretty much hand-to-mouth, or at least field-to-table, is more viable, food storage is harder and prolonged exertion will kill you. These cultures develop siestas and easy times.
Disclaimer: I think I'm just making this up. But I did read Guns, Germs and Steel a while back (which I recommend as one of the best history books I have ever read) and the seeds of this idea MIGHT have come from this book. Maybe. Credit to J. Diamond if appropriate, blame to me if not.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:49 AM   #9
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I think that was in there, Zen. And I second his endorsement of the book. Also, the 3rd ape if you're into more anthropology stuff.

However, I do think it's purely a cultural development stemming from our obsession with material gains. You could attribute it to a thousand things, but it all boils down to that urge to succeed financially that seems to pervade the western world (and yeah, Japan). It's even today cheered as an important part of humanity, but I for one think it's spun wildly out of control and people lose sight of what's more important (having a good time )
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:56 AM   #10
ZenGum
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Originally Posted by Mockingbird View Post
That was long, sorry folks. Communism/socialism/etc. is just sort of a hot button issue for me.
Long, maybe, but not repetitive, and completely devoid of name-calling, put downs, or personal attacks, so I was cool with it.


But I think you might want a now.

Have you considered the system used in China for a while under Mao? Everyone was paid the same hourly rate, but could work different hours. If you worked harder, you got more.
I know, it still seems unfair. Six hours shelving books in the library is NOT equal to six hours digging coal in an underground mine.
But the present western system doesn't seem fair either ... but QQG covers that well I thought.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGum View Post
Long, maybe, but not repetitive, and completely devoid of name-calling, put downs, or personal attacks, so I was cool with it.


But I think you might want a now.

Have you considered the system used in China for a while under Mao? Everyone was paid the same hourly rate, but could work different hours. If you worked harder, you got more.
I know, it still seems unfair. Six hours shelving books in the library is NOT equal to six hours digging coal in an underground mine.
But the present western system doesn't seem fair either ... but QQG covers that well I thought.
There will always be people fucked over, I'm not saying that any society will ever be rid of the cutthroats.

I don't know. I've gotten the short end of the stick most of my life, I grew up in a trailer park where my parents had nothing. They couldn't afford to put me through college, and we were barely fed. I got a scholarship, had it revoked on a technicality, then still went on. I wanted an education and a good life and no paths were open to me. I sold cocaine for a few years (I knew the risk and have had more than one gun in my face, but there weren't many other options), saved up the money for college and earned a job where I work only 20 hours a week, but work hard and get paid many times over what my father made when I was a boy, even adjusting for inflation.

I'm in college now and working, and I haven't had anything handed to me. My father was a hard worker, too, but he did a lot of manual labor. I think maybe that now it's more important to work smarter than harder, and there's a bonus if you don't mind struggling past other people or being a bit of a bastard now and then. I just know that I am where I am now because of what I did and I worked hard to get here.

Also, what would socialist capitalism even look like? If we had universal free health care, and better government institutions, wouldn't it be the same thing as capitalism, just with a better organized government?
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:52 PM   #12
queequeger
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Originally Posted by Mockingbird View Post
Also, what would socialist capitalism even look like? If we had universal free health care, and better government institutions, wouldn't it be the same thing as capitalism, just with a better organized government?
That's a pretty good summary right there. The idea is higher taxes (think 50% on average, maybe even higher... of course progressive in nature rather than flat) and much more comprehensive in nature. Meaning universal free education, as high as you can earn (though you do still have to earn the grades). Meaning free health care for everyone (although I think you should be able to opt to pay more for better than average service). Meaning if you're disabled or can't work for a short time, free food.

No one should have to worry about shelter, food, medicine, or education. Everyone who CAN work, should. With this system you still have the motivation to work harder and you are rewarded for it, but it leaves no one wanting. Wikipedia's entries are under 'social democracy' although that's a misnomer because socialism is supposed to be democratic, not despotic like the USSR. I guess someone high jacked the name Social capitalism with some theory that institutionalizes social strata.

but yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply the popular idea of communism (i.e. russia's twisted BS factory) I mean that through technology and idealogical advancements, we'll create a form of socialism without even trying to.
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:10 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by queequeger View Post
That's a pretty good summary right there. The idea is higher taxes (think 50% on average, maybe even higher... of course progressive in nature rather than flat) and much more comprehensive in nature. Meaning universal free education, as high as you can earn (though you do still have to earn the grades). Meaning free health care for everyone (although I think you should be able to opt to pay more for better than average service). Meaning if you're disabled or can't work for a short time, free food.

No one should have to worry about shelter, food, medicine, or education. Everyone who CAN work, should. With this system you still have the motivation to work harder and you are rewarded for it, but it leaves no one wanting. Wikipedia's entries are under 'social democracy' although that's a misnomer because socialism is supposed to be democratic, not despotic like the USSR. I guess someone high jacked the name Social capitalism with some theory that institutionalizes social strata.

but yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply the popular idea of communism (i.e. russia's twisted BS factory) I mean that through technology and idealogical advancements, we'll create a form of socialism without even trying to.
I agree, I think that people have forgotten the use of many common words, even our forms of government. If you analyze the United States for example, you'll find that it's a lax republic rather than a true democracy. Which is actually better, depending on who you ask. Everyone is so used to calling it a democracy though, that you don't really think twice about it. In the case of 'socialism' we could substitute a new meaning in there to distill the bitter Russian taste. How about:

Socialism: A form of government operating on the philosophy of not being a dick to a stranger, ever.

See, that's much easier to understand.
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:22 PM   #14
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Socialism: A form of government operating on the philosophy of not being a dick to a stranger, ever.
Or ELSE!
You gotta' finish it.
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:25 AM   #15
queequeger
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Or ELSE!
You gotta' finish it.
See, that's the bad taste definition he was describing. There's nothing in the root ideals of socialism that requires the 'Or else.' THAT'S why everyone hates socialism so much, because they think it means some sort of loss of freedom of speech, and it doesn't.
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