Stupid wiring tricks

[SteveDallas]

I need some electrical wiring advice. I've been googling around and haven't found a definitive answer.

In our new addition, the overhead lights in the bedroom and 2nd floor bathroom are all on the same circuit breaker.

The builders installed a basic ceiling fan in the bedroom. We had a fan with a remote control in the old bedroom, and we decided we wanted to switch the two fans. So I did. The original basic fan was hooked up to a three-wire cable, white to white, black to blue (for the light), and red to black (for the fan), giving control of the light to the wall switch and leaving current straight to the fan for pull-chain control independent of the wall switch.

The remote control box for the fancy fan only has two incoming power leads, hot and neutral. So when I wired it I hooked those to the white & black leads and capped off the red lead with an extra wire nut.

Since this time, about one week, the circuit breaker has tripped three times. This is, in fact, an AFCI breaker. My theory is that it's the "loose" red lead that's occasionally causing the breaker to be unhappy.

So, best way to deal with the red lead? (Hooking the red & black together doesn't seem like a good move.)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Does the fancy fan have a light also?

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Does the fancy fan have a light also?

Yes it does. The remote control receiver has two leads for incoming power and has white, black, and blue outputs to connect to neutral, fan, and light on the fan proper. Then the remote control works on/off for both fan and light, as well as dimming the light & speed control for the fan.

[tw]

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

The builders installed a basic ceiling fan in the bedroom. We had a fan with a remote control in the old bedroom, and we decided we wanted to switch the two fans. So I did. The original basic fan was hooked up to a three-wire cable, white to white, black to blue (for the light), and red to black (for the fan), giving control of the light to the wall switch and leaving current straight to the fan for pull-chain control independent of the wall switch.

The remote control box for the fancy fan only has two incoming power leads, hot and neutral. So when I wired it I hooked those to the white & black leads and capped off the red lead with an extra wire nut.

Significant facts are missing. First, is this an AFGI in the breaker box or one in a wall receptacle?

Second, if the red wire is capped, then how do you control the fan? Does the fan and light both get powered simultaneously by the remote control?

Reasons from tripping. AGFI is tripped by two common problems. First is arcing. Every wire must remain connected without the wire nut. IOW the wires must stay connected only because they are wrapped around each other. Only then is the wire nut added as the always required 'backup' connection. A loose connection causes arcing. Arcing is detected by the AGFI which trips.

Second problem. Extra care is required to separate neutral (white) wires from safety ground. Normally, safety ground shorted to the hot wire trips a breaker. Safety ground intermittently shorting to a neutral wire would not cause problems. But safety ground shorted to or leaking to neutral wire causes an AGFI to trip intermittently or constantly. Good workmanship means safety ground connections are made first and then fully pushed to the back. Safety ground connections are located in a separate area inside that box. And so that as the cover (or fixture) is connected, all wires remain better separated from each other.

If a red wire is capped on one end, then it must be capped on both ends. If the red wire is capped, then how does a remote control control light and fan separately?

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by tw

Significant facts are missing. First, is this an AFGI in the breaker box or one in a wall receptacle?

In the breaker box. (This is, I believe, currently required by code for bedrooms as of a few years ago. Though clearly I am not an expert.)

Second, if the red wire is capped, then how do you control the fan? Does the fan and light both get powered simultaneously by the remote control?

They are both controlled by the remote control. However, they have (sort of) independent power inputs. Although there's only one hot lead going into the remote control receiver (from the wall switch), there are separate hot leads going out to the fan and light fixture respectively. The remote control receiver will operate both separately, so you can dim or power off the light independent from the fan and vice versa.

I took the switch apart and discovered that the red lead only goes from the wall switch to the fan--it is not a separate hot lead as I had mistakenly thought, and the wiring from the switch back to the breaker box is 2-wire and not 3-wire. So I disconnected the red lead from the pigtail off the wall switch and capped it off. We'll see.

[tw]

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

They are both controlled by the remote control. However, they have (sort of) independent power inputs. Although there's only one hot lead going into the remote control receiver (from the wall switch), there are separate hot leads going out to the fan and light fixture respectively.

Black wire from the breaker box goes to the power input for the controller. Two outgoing wires from the controller connect to black and red wires (from switch to ceiling box) which connect to light/fan's blue and black wires.

White wire from breaker goes to white wire (to ceiling box) which in turn connects to light/fan's white wire.

That part makes sense - or is what I read in your posts. Sometimes white wires must also connect to the controller (depending on its internal design). But, as I read your post, white wires never connect to the controller.

And finally, bare copper (safety ground) wire from breaker box must connect to bare copper wire going to ceiling box. And connects to light/fan's chassis. Depending on the design, that bare copper wire might also connect to the controller - if the controller has a safety ground connection.

All that makes sense. Now you have confused me. You also have another red wire (from the breaker box?) ending inside the controller (formally switch) box? Why does that wire exist? It should not exist. The wire from breaker box should be 12/2 - not 12/3. There should be no red wire to cap off.

As defined, a black wire (from switch box to ceiling box) powers the light. Red wire powers the fan. Each is connected to separate wires on the controller. That leaves no wires to cap off. Red wire powers the fan. Black wire powers the light. Is everything I have posted what you intended? Then why is some wire capped off?


Moving on - exactly what was powered off or on when the AGFI tripped? And did you confirm all safety ground (bare) wires are located inside boxes to be as separate as practical from all other wires.

AGFI were required for all bedroom circuits since 2002(?). Long ago, Dave discussed a house fire created by his Christmas tree. A spark ignited the tree when his wife plugged it in. In five minutes, the entire house was engulfed. They even lost all pets. As far as I am concerned, any live Christmas tree should only be lit via an AGFI - as Dave demonstrates. AGFI would have averted that fire for the same reason why it is also required for all bedrooms. Any live tree should only be lit via an AGFI.

[tw]

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

We had a fan with a remote control in the old bedroom, ...

Does this mean the old bedroom was never powered via an AGFI? A GFCI or an AGFI would have detected a defect in that fan. All previous posts assumed the 'old bedroom' fan was not tripping an existing AGFI or GFCI. How do you know that 'moved' assembly is not defective?

[glatt]

Just a nitpick tw, it's an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI)

I don't know what a AFGI or a AGFI are. I googled them and got no legitimate hits relating to wiring. Normally, this sort of thing is just semantics, but the acronym actually means something here and when I see it written down, I need to do a mental translation to remember what the hell the thing does.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

You also have another red wire (from the breaker box?) ending inside the controller (formally switch) box? Why does that wire exist? It should not exist. The wire from breaker box should be 12/2 - not 12/3. There should be no red wire to cap off.

Unless there were two wall switches controlling the ceiling light?

[SteveDallas]

Sigh. Some days....

The wiring in the old bedroom is, well, old. There is no AFCI breaker. It's entirely possible there was some issue in the fan.

The remote control receiver has hot and neutral inputs. When I said it had "only one hot lead" I meant as opposed to two hot leads, not that there was no neutral. There are two hot and one neutral leads going out to the fan/light assembly.

We do not know exactly what was on at the times the breaker tripped. (There are no outlets on the breaker, only light switches & fixtures.) However the breaker did not trip until I swapped the fans, leading me to presume, pending further evidence, that the problem was with the fan or its installation.

[tw]

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

The remote control receiver has hot and neutral inputs. When I said it had "only one hot lead" I meant as opposed to two hot leads, not that there was no neutral.

Appreciate that you have now defined a completely different circuit. Never short you help of facts (it might trip a breaker). Most important facts are often ones you think are not OR that you did not understand - so ignored. Also asked were detailed wiring questions. Everyone must be answered yes or no. Undefined (no reply) means I will have to ask them but a third time. Please do not make this difficult.

That fact that an old fan may have always been a human safety threat is significant. So, break the problem down into parts. Then analyze each part separately. Forget all bedrooms. Forget all wires in the walls. Deal only with one problem at a time to eliminate exponentially increasing complexity.

Connect a fan to a three prong plug. Get a three wire extension cord. Go to a room with a GFCI (not an AFGI). GFCIs are typically more sensitive.

Locate (hang) that fan so that it can spin freely when the extension cord powers that fan and light via a GFIC receptacle. Yes the fan will have some force behind it. Does that outlet trip the GFCI?

Or get a digital multimeter to measure tens of Megohm leakages in the fan. This is about 10 times easier but too difficult to explain to most.

IOW do not do anything else until that fan's integrity is confirmed by either test and the results confirmed here. Testing the smallest item so that other unknowns (ie wall wiring, AFCI, etc) do not exponentially complicate the problem.

You did not answer every question. What is the capped red wire going to? Did you confirm safety ground wires are safely separated from hot and nuetral wires (ie no cracks or breaks in the black and white wire insulation)? You did not say whether every wire circuit description is exactly summarized.


AFGI or what others may call it. GFCI is required in all bathrooms and bedrooms - a human safety device. To protect humans from electric shocks. AFGI or AFCI or what ever initials might be used - was developed in the early 1990s to be required in all bedrooms since 2002(?). It detects and quashes wire arcs as well as works like a GFCI. It protects from electric shocks AND from arc generated fires. Had Dave's Christmas tree been powered via an AFGI, then the house would not have burned. All pets would have survived.