Tolerance

[infinite monkey]

No, I called Ibram pretentious for saying, in answer to JB's question, that he could never understand such a lofty concept as diversity.

Though diverse JB certainly is.

[Sundae]

I never got Pig Latin.
Probably makes me stupid.

I get confused when timelines cross as well, which makes stories including the Doctor and River Song extremely problematic...

I have some people on ignore so I don't get cross.
So no posts are aimed at anyone in particular, they are simply thread drift.

You wouldn't like me if I was cross.
I bust my shirt and everything.

PS - can I be minus 8lbs please.
I'm not sure what it means but I certainly don't need to gain half a stone..

[infinite monkey]

I don't care about the language. I learned something too.

And no, Pig Latin is actually pretty stupid.

I take offense to most of Ibram's speeches about diversity including a dig at how this person or that person couldn't possibly understand.

He's like the first and only person different from everyone else.

I like Ibram, but I call it as I see it.

[DanaC]

Ahhh. Gotcha.

I don't think that's Ibs being pretentious, but rather she's reached a judgement on JB's ability to accept certain types of subculture. Whether that's a fair judgement is not for me to say, but it didn't exactly come out of the blue or without any cause.

Just because JB is a sub-culture of one all by his very self, does not mean that he has any acceptance of difference in others, particularly if they breach his faith-based moral boundaries, which most of the sub-cultures Ibs is/has been a part of would. As indeed wuold the sub-culture that bore the Polari language.

You defended JB and his right to be different in these boards. That doesn't obligate Ibs to modify her opinion of JB one iota.

[infinite monkey]

No, you're right. He doesn't need to modify his opinion. However, his constant cries for equality for the different coupled with such opinions of other people's differences seems a bit hypocritical to me. I get tired of it, and he should be more mindful. He's young, I think he'll learn a lot as he goes through life, and I think he's a pretty good person...but it raises my hackles every time.

[DanaC]

I understand. But try and see things from his perspective on this one. Such a sensitive thing as sexuality and gender identity. And, as we all know (:p) very specifically a sensitive issue for Ibs and one which h/she has grappled with through various levels of confusion, depression, elation, confidence and fear...

And JB trampled heavily on that ground. Several really nasty comments driving straight to the very heart of why that stuff hurts so disproportionately to the actual harm done.

Now, I am not saying it was a one-sided affair. Ibs has said some things to/about JB that I find uncomfortable also. But again, and again, across a period of about 4 weeks, JB found occasion to make snide comments either about Ibs, or more generally about gay, queer, transgender people. Most often these comments were ignored by all. On one occasion I recall classicman called JB out on one of them, and told him he was being a real dick making comments like that. But on the whole we ignored it. And you, ignored it.

but it's kind of difficult to ignore when you are the person being alluded to in a series of shitty comments about how little your kind matters, and how it's your kind that cause the world's ills, and how your kind will have no place in the world he envisages and hopes for.

You ignored most of JB's bitchy comments. Why not show Ibs the same regard?

Because he's annoyingly evangelical about diversity and gender stuff? Because he approaches these things with the kind of zeal that actually serves to undermine some o fthe basic tenets of that acceptance? Well, hell he's a youngster. We all discover this shit for the first time, and we all understand in a way our parents and elders never could, and we all go through those things in one form or another.

[jimhelm]

white people problems

[Ibby]

To be fair, I actually am unconvinced he'll understand shit because he has such an associative way of approaching new information, due to his mental condition, and as such I (condescendingly, yes) simply doubt that he will read the wikipedia page on Polari and "get" it - more likely, he will respond with something about how he likes the gypsies as much as he likes the niggers but the bible says america should speak english cause he bleeds America. I'm being (fairly or unfairly) ableist about his handicap, and therefore nasty and condescending, but not pretentious about my OWN experience understanding diverse and countercultural groups.

I'm just being a douche and calling him a crazy fuck.

also, IM:

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

No, you're right. He... his... his... He's... he'll... he... he's...

If I'm reading you right, you mean me here? *She, dear, if you missed the memo. Yeah, I know i start out saying nah pronouns dont matter, but they've started to, so i'm trying to correct people as politely as possible. Thanks!

[infinite monkey]

No. I propose you change your username. From now on, I would like you to recognize my inner rutabaga. (Just a little levity, before I go...feel offended as you see fit but it's really a joke, though I should probably sway from rafters for daring to joke about such important matters.)

And it's OK, because I am absolutely unconvinced that you will understand that acceptance of differences does not just apply when it's something you like, or something you want to paint pretty, or something that seems lofty and lovely to you. It applies to everyone.

I don't expect anyone to be perfect on this matter, gourd knows I'm not, but I'm not calling a duck a bison here. Intolerance abounds.

In case there is still some misunderstanding, the matter of mental illness has touched my life (and yeah, not just my own) and the absolute refusal of some people to not tie a person's entire being up in the ribbons of disgust you've picked from the big picture is completely disingenuous and hypocritical.

And really, I'm so tired of it. So very fucking tired of the hypocrisy.

[DanaC]

So, basically, this is all hitting one of your buttons. This is an issue that drives home for you.

JB hit Ib's buttons. This stuff matters. This stuff hurts. Our treatment of JB hurts you and it wasn't even directed at you. JB hurt Ibs directly.

But somehow Ib's is supposed to just shrug that shit off and be superunderstanding of JB's mental health issues. She's got to float above it all and not give in to that human desire to hit back and take a swipe at someone who hurt her.

You do not hold back when you are hurt. You do not rise above it when people swipe at you. You do not turn the other cheek. Why do you expect it of Ibs?

Is it because the thing that hurts Ibs doesn't resonate for you the same way that JB's mental health does? is it really that simple? Please tell me it isnt.

You dismiss Ib's concerns and Ib's hurt withe every post in this thread. You have stood in judgement over what someone else should find hurtful to them, and then drawn a line accordingly.


[eta]Just to be clear, Infi, I am really not trying to have a go at you. I am slightly bemused by some of your responses.

[Sundae]

No.

With all due respect because I really like you as a Dwellar and a person, that is not fair.
Of the four people currently involved in the discussion, Ibs is the only one I know who hasn't sought treatment for mental health issues. It is highly likely she has, I just don't want to assume. You, me and Dana have.

So there is no pussyfooting about here. We're not ignorant of the issues. During treatment we've certainly met people who have issues deeper and darker than our own.

This is not the Treehouse Club.
This is someone who - mental health issues aside - is espousing values we (the Cellar) disagree with.
Disagree with vehemently.

What if a poster was hung up on the Gospel of St Paul? The part where women are subjugated? Where they cannot be in charge of men?
What about the twisting of that which allows men to beat women?

Would you support a viewpoint like that just because the person writing it had mental health issues?
I'm sure you wouldn't. You are a good person and a strong woman.

No-one here is anti-JBK for his health. My goodness, UT is bi-polar and we pack a full bag of other afflictions and I know you know that. We're anti what he has expressed. And again, before thinking this is a hate campaign, imagine he was talking about gunning down women at a march. Just because they were women. He is unlikely to ever do it, but think about how it affects your opinion of him.

BTW - Ibram is a made up name.
Could be male or female. I can't see how that could be a sticking point.

[Ibby]

Thanks for the support, dana and sundae, but in the case of my "you won't understand" comment, no, IM's right. It was out of line. Like I said, it was ableist and condescending, and as someone who's also struggled with mental health issues I should totally know better. It was an unfair dig at his mental problems, and that should be just as out of line - to anyone, hurt or not - as attacking me for my identity or whatever. I apologise to JB and to IM - it was, let me be clear, out of line for me to hit back that way. It was a reflection of the fact that I, to be honest, don't particularly appreciate JB's contribution to the forum, and find myself at best frustrated by the disingenuousness with which he responds to topics - but making that into a dig at his mental health issues, so condescendingly, IS out of line.

[DanaC]

You're right, Ibs, it was out of line. Mostly when we attack people who've hurt us we use the weapons we have that they don't.

It was out of line but it was, in my view, eminently understandable that you were bitchy with JB (ie ableist). That's the point I wanted to make. calling you out as unusually hypocritical because you lashed out with a bitchy comment to someone who'd been such a dick to you seemed unfair.

[Ibby]

Bitchy is one thing. Ableist and dismissive is another. Attacking JB that way - being ableist - isn't a PERSONAL attack. It's a categoric attack, on par with racism, sexism, and the other isms. If i was just being bitchy, i'd be standing by it. What I did was like dismissing the niggers cause a black person said something gay-bashing.

[DanaC]

Fair enough. I didn't see it as being ableist. Dismissive yes. Suggesting he wouldn't get it seemed to me based on his faith/political views as recently espoused as anything else.

That's not to say you havent made ableist comments before this. In response to one of JB's religious posts. And I think you got called out on it at the time, and indeed stepped back from it.