The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Philosophy

Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2008, 12:26 PM   #1
smoothmoniker
to live and die in LA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,090
Why Be Virtuous?

Why be virtuous? Why do good things instead of bad things? The following five statements aren't direct quotes, but they are accurate summaries of five philosophers, and how they answered the question of why we should be virtuous.

“The best reason to be virtuous is because of the nature of the human soul - virtue is the proper function of the human nature, and we do damage to our own nature, our own souls, if we deceive others and act with cruelty.” (Plato)

“The best reason to be virtuous is because of God’s decree - He commands us to do certain things and not to do certain other things, and out of either love or fear, we ought to obey his commands.” (William of Ockham)

"The best reason to be virtuous is because it is the most rational state of affairs - rationality is the cardinal human endeavor, and virtue is the highest expression of reason." (Immanuel Kant)

“The best reason to be virtuous is increased personal well-being in the midst of social pressure - if you are dishonest and cruel to others, society will shun you, and your capacity to enjoy life will be diminished.” (Ayn Rand)

“The best reason to be virtuous is to increase the total happiness (or flourishing) of sentient beings - the cumulative total of well-being is increased better off when people are honest and compassionate toward one another.” (Peter Singer)
__________________
to live and die in LA

Last edited by smoothmoniker; 01-08-2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason: added kant
smoothmoniker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 02:00 PM   #2
lookout123
changed his status to single
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Right behind you. No, the other side.
Posts: 10,308
Why? Because I want my children to be virtuous. How do I coach them along what I believe to be the path of virtue if it is plainly clear that I am not on the same path?
__________________
Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin
lookout123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 02:35 PM   #3
SteveDallas
Your Bartender
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Philly Burbs, PA
Posts: 7,651
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
I want my children to be virtuous.
Why?

Doesn't any answer you give to that question devolve back to one of the justifications sm gave?
SteveDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 02:41 PM   #4
lookout123
changed his status to single
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Right behind you. No, the other side.
Posts: 10,308
not really. i'm just cheap and if they are virtuous there is a much smaller chance of me having to bail them out of jail.
__________________
Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin
lookout123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 03:24 PM   #5
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
not really. i'm just cheap and if they are virtuous there is a much smaller chance of me having to bail them out of jail.
Rational self-interest. 1 pt Rand

I'll go with Plato. Doing things which are not virtuous is self destroying.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 04:40 PM   #6
Aliantha
trying hard to be a better person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 16,493
People are virtuous because they want other people to like them. That's all.

If other people like you, you have power. The more people that like you, the more power you have.

If society valued something else, there'd be power in being that thing instead of virtuous.
__________________
Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber
Aliantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 05:46 PM   #7
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
Reciprocity. The foundation of all human cultures.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 07:52 PM   #8
SteveDallas
Your Bartender
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Philly Burbs, PA
Posts: 7,651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliantha View Post
If other people like you, you have power. The more people that like you, the more power you have.
There are a great many powerful people who are not very likable and who have done many unlikable things.
SteveDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 08:52 PM   #9
Aliantha
trying hard to be a better person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 16,493
Well, I'm talking about on a day to day level with normal people.

Most of the unlikeable people in power got there via unscrupulous means and they're still in power because everyone else is too 'virtuous' to take them down.
__________________
Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber
Aliantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 09:41 PM   #10
smoothmoniker
to live and die in LA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliantha View Post
Most of the unlikeable people in power got there via unscrupulous means and they're still in power because everyone else is too 'virtuous' to take them down.
If virtue is nothing more than a tool for social power, then we should admire and emulate those who are "unscrupulous" and powerful, since they were able to achieve the beneficial outcome (power) without the personal constraint (virtue).

If it's true that social power is the only real benefit of virtue, then the powerful and immoral person has the most praiseworthy life.
__________________
to live and die in LA
smoothmoniker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 09:50 PM   #11
Aliantha
trying hard to be a better person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 16,493
yes but society doesn't value immoral and unscrupulous people. Only virtuous.

We are after all just animals living out our life. I suppose one of the things that sets us apart from other animals is virtue however, that may or may not be a good thing.

I guess it all depends on your perspective.
__________________
Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber
Aliantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2008, 11:08 PM   #12
piercehawkeye45
Franklin Pierce
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
First, I would like to claim that I, and many others I know, find happiness in virtue. I try to be virtuous because it brings me happiness. Helping others bring me happiness.

I think the connection of virtue and happiness comes across through evolution and the growth of living and interacting in a community.

For one, humans are very community based animals, and for this we can not look at modern society because we have not evolved to live in a society like ours today, but a more nomadic and communal society. So the question has to change too, why would it be advantageous for me to help someone in my community?

The answer seems pretty simple. In that time, it would be better for my survival to watch out for the interests of the community instead of my own because a strong community will better insure the passing of my genes than watching my individual interests. If I lived a million years ago by myself, there is a good chance I would be quickly killed because even though humans are smart, it is not easy to kill predators, find food, and build shelters by oneself. So, instead I become more altruistic and watch out for the interests of the community because if the community strengthens, so does my chance of passing on my genes. Basically, if I watch your back, you watch mine, and we both have a better chance of survival and people that showed the trait of being virtuous and watching out for the community survived while the selfish did not.

That is my guess.
piercehawkeye45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 12:02 AM   #13
regular.joe
Старый сержант
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women.
Posts: 1,464
To be, or act virtuous is better then to not be, or not act virtuous. It doesn't matter why.
__________________
Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament.

Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.
regular.joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 01:15 AM   #14
smoothmoniker
to live and die in LA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by regular.joe View Post
It doesn't matter why.
The why matters a great deal. The why is not simple a motivation, but a definition. Each of the statements above indicates a different meaning of what virtue actually is. Defining virtue through one of the above statements will lead a person to different moral choices when confronted with an ethical dilemma.

Take heroic self-sacrifice (woman falls on grenade to save the lives of strangers). Plato, Ockham, and Kant would all say that this is a virtuous act. Rand would say it's an immoral act, since any act that ends one's own life is the ultimate abdication of self-interest. Singer would say that it's not necessarily virtuous - it depends on the degree of greater benefit that flows out of the survival of those several strangers rather than the survival of that one heroic self-sacrificer.

The question of why be virtuous is essential to the question of how to be virtuous.
__________________
to live and die in LA
smoothmoniker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 01:23 AM   #15
piercehawkeye45
Franklin Pierce
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
Good point, virtue is defined as living a moral life or living up to moral excellency and since morally is subjective, it makes a virtuous life subjective as well.

My version of moral excellency is doing what is best in the bigger picture, which reflects on to my example.
piercehawkeye45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.