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Parenting Bringing up the shorties so they aren't completely messed up

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Old 09-29-2005, 01:00 AM   #16
wolf
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In prison you get to take a dump when you want. You don't have to raise your hand to ask permission.

But you are right about the meaningless and degrading busywork.

Like learning to do math without a calculator. It's horrible what they ask of kids these days.
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:44 AM   #17
ashke
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I don't see how anyone could stand for kids who ask their parents for money to do stuff like homework or housework. Seriously ungrateful. It's like, you're part of the family and you contribute your bit. I might have sympathised if it was only because the homework was boring (I had my share of it, didn't do it anyway; got into trouble but I suppose the advantage of the Singapore system is that they don't require you to do any consistent work and if you can score for exams, you're still okay, grades-wise).

The message I get from my parents is that, if I don't study, I have to go out and work. They'll provide for me as long as I can't. Fair deal, imho. You just can't expect others to take care of you forever.

Even I think this kind of policy is for my own good. I absolutely detest parents who spoil their children. Kids have to be taught discipline and responsibility because they're going to grow up one day and find they aren't kids anymore. And when they're adults and act as if they were still kids, what do you have but an absolute nuisance to society. It's a little ironic that it's coming from me but I have no patience for soft parenting. I know I'm no parent but please, for the love of your own kids, do them the favour and teach them to become adults.
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:49 AM   #18
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Sounds to me too that he is smart, and the homework to him is a stupid waste of time. So, why not make a bargin with him. In 'real life' we all have to do things we think are a waste of time...but we reward ourselves by doing something we like to do when we are done. So, find out if there is something he would really like to do, and based on what it is come up with a tit for tat plan. Maybe something really big like take him to New York to *whatever* if he does his homework all semester (or of course whatever his fancy is). Maybe you could bait him with a free day off from school do visit some museum or aquarium or something. Maybe an NFL, or NBA or some other big sporting event you normally wouldn't get to go to. I dunno your kid, but I am sure there is SOMETHING you could (hopefully) tempt him with.
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:22 AM   #19
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Well, he is taking mostly honors classes......but honestly we just had a break through!!!

My mother was over yesterday, and somehow he overheard me talking about how my kid was doing his homework, and no, she couldn't disturb him because of blah blah blah.........so after she left, he said, "does grandma know about this homework stuff!!!!!

I said yes, of course, she is my mother, whom else would I talk to about it...a stranger? She is my mother. I tell her a lot of things I wouldn't discuss with anyone else.

Well, he finally seemed really ashamed that his dear grandmother would be put through anything not nice, on his account, (she spoils him rotten, of course); BUT he then took hours to get all his homework caught up and up to date. I think a light may have come on!!!!

He felt so bad and guilty and his grandma would be so worried about him; the heck with me.....

Let's see if it lasts? I only hope so....

I wonder......
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:32 AM   #20
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One man's poison is another man's meat.

You seem to have found his meat. Good luck.
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:51 AM   #21
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Fleur, your son sounds a lot like I was at his age. I never turned in any homework, never did any of the classwork, but aced every single test and term paper. I couldn't understand why my teachers wouldn't just give me a semester grade based on my final exam, and not hassle with the homework. If homework is the tool to accomplish the learning, and the goal is being reached without the tool, why bother with it?

All that to say, we sometimes do turn out OK. When I got to University, classes started getting hard, I started getting interested, did all the work, graduated with honors, did the same with my graduate degree. At some point we turn a corner.

I'm now back teaching a few courses at a local University, and my views on homework haven't changed; the students can decide at the beginning of the semester if they want their final grade to include homework or just the exams and projects. About 70% choose to do the homework.
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Old 09-29-2005, 12:45 PM   #22
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You were fortunate to get into a decent college if your grades weren't good. The teachers here usually base about 30% of their grades on homework; be damned or not.

I am not for so much homework, but he needs discipline FOR college or else he will wind up at a Community College and fool around there, being BORED.

We live in a good school district which is very oriented to getting kids into decent colleges, and 97% or so continue their education.

Anyway, things will work out in the end, one way or another, I am sure.
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:32 PM   #23
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Random untested idea: use peer pressure.

Tell him the kids who don't do their homework will wind up working for the kids that do.

Ask him what kind of car he wants to roll up to his ten-year reunion in. How's he going to like it when his hard-working classmates drive up in nicer cars.

What are his "hot" buttons? Usually, at 15, girls. What other things motivate him? You have to find a way to connect the two. Homework = better grades = better college = more $$$ = one less reason for women not to go out with you. Drive him through the fancy neighborhoods and explain that no one who didn't take school seriously lives there.

Find someone he respects and ask them to talk to him. It may just be that he resents the food for algebra program you have going on and he's simply expressing control over his life. Punative measures are not wrong but at 15, positive reinforcement is much more effective. Instead of trying to control him, swerve him into making the decision for himself by providing a scenario he can embrace and claim as his own.

At 15, on the List Of Reasons To Do Something, "because Dad told me to" is at the absolute rock bottom. And the harder you push, the harder he's going to resist. I definitely recommend switching from "bad things that will happen if you don't" to "good things that will happen if you do." And those good things should not be associated with you (e.g., money will fly out of your pocket into his). If you are the rewarder, you are the controller and control is exactly what he's fighting so try not to get in the way.

Pulling back for a minute, if he is not passionate about his homework but displays a passion for something else, I wouldn't worry all that much - he'll get around to connecting the dots. If he's not passionate about anything - if he does not exhibit some self-discipline or some behaviour that demonstrates that he understands the tradeoff of sacrifice today for benefit tomorrow, then I'd say its not about the homework and is a sign of a more fundamental life lesson that he hasn't grasped. If this is the case, I would pull back on the specific issue of homework and teach the greater lesson of sacrifice/discipline today brings rewards forever after. Make it very clear to him the future (unquantified and uncontemplated) cost of the decisions he makes today.

Teenagers need to hear it one thousand times a day that the decisions they make today really do affect their quality of life over the next 60 years. I'll spare you the example of how unbelievably stupid I was when I was 15 and how it took me a very long time to escape the corner I had painted myself in.

Good luck - report back.
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:39 PM   #24
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Rather than trying to trick, force, guilt-trip or coerce him, I encourage you to look for ways that the homework could actually be appealing. Education shouldn't be unpleasant.

And really, that's why American universities work at all (vs lower education): there is enough free choice and diversity of topics that people can find something they are interested in, and thereby keep themselves motivated. Very few people get a college degree in a topic they don't care about because they have to, and the few who do are the least happy. (The most happy, and I'd say most successful, are those who find something they love & in turn love learning about.)

Certainly, there's always some degree of bureaucratic bullshit to deal with in any school, but it shouldn't be embraced as the only way to do it.


I realize that's basically idealistic bullshit. Practical advice, then:

Find out why he doesn't do it. If it's boring, talk to the teacher about ways to keep him motivated, if he /is/ in honors classes and bored despite that. If it's too hard, find ways to make it easier.

If it's just that he's not interested in the topics, see if there isn't some way for him to have more control over what he's learning. (Life is long enough that nobody is going to suffer for not knowing particular factoids from highschool, & people learn better when they're interested, anyway.) In my personal experience, one of the cheaper thrills in an institution is to exist outside the guidelines: special projects/privileges, different subjects.

School exists to teach, not assign homework & then get penalized for not doing it. As the parent, it's your power &, I would argue, right to make the school or school district give your son something educational to do.
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Old 09-29-2005, 07:46 PM   #25
Fleur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunks
Rather than trying to trick, force, guilt-trip or coerce him, I encourage you to look for ways that the homework could actually be appealing. Education shouldn't be unpleasant.

And really, that's why American universities work at all (vs lower education): there is enough free choice and diversity of topics that people can find something they are interested in, and thereby keep themselves motivated. Very few people get a college degree in a topic they don't care about because they have to, and the few who do are the least happy. (The most happy, and I'd say most successful, are those who find something they love & in turn love learning about.)

Certainly, there's always some degree of bureaucratic bullshit to deal with in any school, but it shouldn't be embraced as the only way to do it.


I realize that's basically idealistic bullshit. Practical advice, then:

Find out why he doesn't do it. If it's boring, talk to the teacher about ways to keep him motivated, if he /is/ in honors classes and bored despite that. If it's too hard, find ways to make it easier.

If it's just that he's not interested in the topics, see if there isn't some way for him to have more control over what he's learning. (Life is long enough that nobody is going to suffer for not knowing particular factoids from highschool, & people learn better when they're interested, anyway.) In my personal experience, one of the cheaper thrills in an institution is to exist outside the guidelines: special projects/privileges, different subjects.

School exists to teach, not assign homework & then get penalized for not doing it. As the parent, it's your power &, I would argue, right to make the school or school district give your son something educational to do.

Yes. we have met with the old superintendant; he left, the current superintendent is leaving after 5 years......he was a self promoting beaurocrat in the worst way..and I am being kind.

Soon enough, we will be done with high school and this will just be a memory; albeit not the best one; teen years are damn hard...I do recall them.....and he has a lot of backbone and smarts, it should serve him well if he gets some common sense and that the future is today when you are a teen. I had family problems and $$$ problems when I was his age...you don't even want to know, but he has two loving parents who would give their lives for him...he is a WANTED child.

Planned Parenthood.....where it's at.
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Old 09-30-2005, 07:55 AM   #26
WabUfvot5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf
In prison you get to take a dump when you want. You don't have to raise your hand to ask permission.

But you are right about the meaningless and degrading busywork.

Like learning to do math without a calculator. It's horrible what they ask of kids these days.
So students are treated even worse than prisoners in some cases? Sheesh, I'd have committed a crime to get better conditions. And the calcs are a hard issue. The speed up a lot of stuff once you learn the ideas behind it, but many use it as a crutch to get through class. Ultimately those who want to learn will learn.
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Old 09-30-2005, 09:26 AM   #27
xoxoxoBruce
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At 15, on the List Of Reasons To Do Something, "because Dad told me to" is at the absolute rock bottom.
That's because they're fed so much self esteme they think they're in charge. Damn shame.
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Old 09-30-2005, 10:19 AM   #28
Fleur
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If I hadn't done a slop job on most of my work; I might have been a contender. As it was then, the big 3, nurse, teacher or secretary was a drag along with getting married at 19.......

Things were different then, and I am glad for changes to make men and women's education a lot more equitable than when I was in school as the "women's movement" in the late 60's early 70's was in it's infancy.

Oh well...there was plenty of sex, drugs and rock & roll, not necessarily in that order!!!!

But of course, like everyone says, if I had to do it over...eh?
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:38 PM   #29
SteveDallas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebediah
So students are treated even worse than prisoners in some cases?
Paul Graham has written an interesting comparisons of school and prison.
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Old 09-30-2005, 06:26 PM   #30
xoxoxoBruce
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Paul Graham has amazing insight.
Quote:
If I could go back and give my thirteen year old self some advice, the main thing I'd tell him would be to stick his head up and look around. I didn't really grasp it at the time, but the whole world we lived in was as fake as a Twinkie. Not just school, but the entire town. Why do people move to suburbia? To have kids! So no wonder it seemed boring and sterile. The whole place was a giant nursery, an artificial town created explicitly for the purpose of breeding children.

Where I grew up, it felt as if there was nowhere to go, and nothing to do. This was no accident. Suburbs are deliberately designed to exclude the outside world, because it contains things that could endanger children.
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