Legality of knife-wielding

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by glatt

I think context plays a pretty big role too. They sell machetes at the hardware store a mile away from me, so they must be legal in Virginia. You have to get them home from the store somehow. If you walk down the street with an uncovered machete in your raised hand, you're liable to get some attention. But if you are cutting brush by the side of the road, I doubt the police would bug you.

True. At the same time, northern VA has a couple of gangs whose weapon of choice is the machete, the same kind you can get at the store. So then it comes down to (criminal) intent and it's still different. If I open-carry a .45 down the street I don't have to explain what I'm doing with it to a curious officer. But I don't have an explanation for the brush machete (or hunting knife as I'd prefer) strapped to my person, it could cause Paperwork. That there is the discrepancy I'm curious about.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

*facepalm*

What? A well made knife made for heavy use could do all that. Obviously one would use the butt to do any hammerin'... using the blade would be silly. And blunting.

[BigV]

a light-use crowbar

I'm a big knife user. Every day. I carry smaller knives, folders, though I have some fixed blades too. It's not a crowbar, and you know it, I know it and I think probably Perry Winkle winced at this one the most. I know I did--do.

[ZenGum]

I figured it out.

It is to keep you safe.

See, being in the US, you should assume the other guy has a gun.

So, any kind of fight is going to turn into a gunfight.

And you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. The gubmint is just reminding you.

It's just the bleeding-heart do-good liberals trying to keep you safe from your own under-armed folly, that's all.

Now take your pill and watch some TV. All is well.

[BigV]

Sometimes you scare me, Mr Gum. This is one of those times.

[jimhelm]

If you use a 14" knife as a toothpick, you clearly suffer from a severe case of penis envy.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Cyber Wolf

What? A well made knife made for heavy use could do all that. Obviously one would use the butt to do any hammerin'... using the blade would be silly. And blunting.

You could use a knife for all of that. But you shouldn't. I can understand using a knife in any way necessary in a survival situation. Sadly, some folks use a knife as something else just because they are too lazy to plan ahead or go retrieve the correct tool.

There's a myth that knives can withstand almost anything you can think of. Buck perpetuated it with their old marketing campaigns. Ginsu made it worse. And then there are the stupid ideas about katanas (and other swords) that can accomplish insipid feats like slicing into a concrete pillar.

Using a knife as a screw driver will tear up the blade. As a crow-bar, well a very high quality knife should be able to be bent 90 degrees without cracking, but I'm not sure I'd trust most production knives more than a few degrees. You're liable to get a fast moving hunk of sharp steel embedded somewhere uncomfortable.

To be perfectly honest, I would use the production knives I've got for most of what you mention without worrying. They're pretty much junk anyway.

Anyway, so that my comments aren't entirely thread jacking...

I'm not sure why our knife laws are the way they are. I know that the UK has tightened up their knife laws a lot in response to a large number of stabbings. My feeling is that this is probably the reason for most of the knife laws in the US, too. What I've read (on the internet) seems to back this up.

I also know a lot of knife makers who will not ship to NY because of their crazy knife laws. Pretty much any folding knife can be classified as "gravity-opening" because officers will go so far as flipping them open holding the blade.

[BrianR]

When I taught self defense, armed and unarmed, I taught everyone to first know the local laws in the area in which you intend to carry any weapon. Then, I told them to choose their weapons accordingly. Obviously, I could not cover any other area than Philadelphia. But I had students from as far away as New York City and Baltimore. I advocated carrying a reasonably-sized knife as a less-than-lethal weapon in addition to a firearm, if possible. I used different criteria depending on the class. For beginners, I recommended a smaller, folding knife with a locking blade. For advanced fighters, I recommended a 6-8 inch fixed blade knife (faster into action than a folder) such as a Ka-Bar.

However, I also taught that your weapons should be totally concealed at all times. That means not carrying fixed blade knives on the belt. I showed other means of carrying a knife, like inverted harness sheaths placed along the spine or on the weak-side chest. I have seen other places for concealment also.

I never advocated large weapons of any kind and especially not machetes, baseball bats or swords. They are impossible to conceal and difficult to defend in court. They are just not worth the effort to carry and intimidation isn't a value in my system.

What I recommended for people in places where thuggery is a valid career choice was to carry something that is not generally considered a weapon like a screwdriver, hammer or chisel. Very common and easy to defend in court if it happened to also share a hiding place with other common tools in a toolbox or hip holster. You don't even have to conceal them.

You have chosen a fine knife but perhaps not one that I would carry. It's pricey and liable to vanish if confiscated by police. Better to carry something more disposable. I consider a knife to be a throw-down in terms of weapons. That is, if I shoot you dead, I would throw down the knife next to your bleeding corpse and swear that you attacked me. I know more than one cop who does the same thing with a cheap handgun.

Follow my first advice and you'll be okay. Conceal that knife and know the laws that apply to you.

Good luck.

Pamela

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by BrianR

I consider a knife to be a throw-down in terms of weapons. That is, if I shoot you dead, I would throw down the knife next to your bleeding corpse and swear that you attacked me. I know more than one cop who does the same thing with a cheap handgun.

Originally Posted by BigV

Sometimes you scare me, Mr Gum. This is one of those times.

Sometimes you scare me Ms Pamela. This is one of those times.

[sexobon]

A few reasons for limitations on carry knives:

Knives are not generally considered humane tools for self defense. You can kill in self defense; but, you're not permitted to unnecessarily maim or mangle. Even when using guns you can't put explosives in bullets, fill them with poison; or, choose to shoot someone repeatedly in the extremities when a single incapacitating shot to the trunk can be made. Police and military are bound by similar restrictions.

The general rule for blade length limitation on carry knives is that if someone is attacked with such a knife, they can protect their vital organs by just covering the anticipated impact area with their own extremities which puts the vital organs out of reach of the blade. Exceptions to blade length limitations for carry knives are based on having a demonstrable lawful use.

Guns leave bullets behind which can often be traced. Knives are not generally left behind and wounds can be difficult to attribute to a specific knife.

also

Burglars have tried to avoid being charged with having burglary tools in their possession by carrying sporting tools (e.g. a large hunting knife in lieu of a pry bar or chisel).

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Ibram

There's also the (not necessarily legally relevant) argument that, since suppressors or silencers are illegal most places...

Silencers are legal in 38 states (as are machine guns). They must be registered, just like a hand gun, and require a separate permit/license.

And, yes, an actual ATF agent will crawl around inside your butthole with a flashlight when you apply for that permit.

Apologies for the digression.

[ZenGum]

Burglars have tried to avoid being charged with having burglary tools in their possession by carrying sporting tools (e.g. a large hunting knife in lieu of a pry bar or chisel).

Ummm....

"HEY, YOU! You're not carrying a CHISEL in this suburban neighbourhood, are you?"
"Oh, heavens no, Officer, just this 14 inch hunting knife, sir."
"Oh, thank goodness, a law abiding citizen. Carry on..."

Ummmm..... You Merkins are strange.

[infinite monkey]

*snickers*

Some of us are!

[ZenGum]

More seriously, I cannot think of any reason to prefer a knife over a gun, if both are legal.

Guns work from a distance. Knives need to get within arms reach.

Guns make noise which immediately attracts attention, which if you're being attacked, is what you want. Knives are quiet, which is what the bad guy wants.

Knives may be "less lethal", but you don't always want that. You want easily controlled lethality. Guns have options of waving it, warning shot, leg shot, gut shot, three in the chest and one in the head ... With a knife, you'd have to be very very skilled to get that kind of lethality control.

And ultimately, guy with a gun usually beats guy with a knife.

This is just all in my head, though, it sounds to me like Pamela has a lot more thought and experience on this topic.

[BigV]

More seriously?

Because a knife is useful in a thousand more situations than a gun is. I do shudder at the thought of Cyber Wolf prying the lid from a gallon of paint with his mondo pig sticker... but in every day use, stuff needs to be cut. The number of times stuff needs to be *shot* is zero. So far, so far. And that's why I carry a knife and not a gun, though both are legal.

Fair warning--you're gonna catch hell for this:

Guns have options of waving it, warning shot, leg shot, gut shot, three in the chest and one in the head ...