Holy Jesus! - Page 5

richlevy · 11-05-2006, 10:56 AM

From here:

Quote:

How close was Haggard to the White House?
Tim Grieve of Salon talk to Lauren Sandler, the author of "Righteous: Dispatches From the Evangelical Youth Movement," who reports: "Haggard participates -- or at least he did -- in weekly White House conference calls, and he and the president like to joke that the only thing they disagree on is what truck to drive."

..and where to get top quality illegal drugs.

From here.

Quote:

In case you were wondering, yesterday the White House trotted out traveling press aide Tony Fratto to field questions about Ted Haggard. Here's the exchange:

Q This Reverend Haggard out in Colorado, is he someone who is close to the White House? There had been reports that he was on the weekly call with evangelicals. Is that true?

MR. FRATTO: I'm actually told that that's not true, that he has -- in terms of a weekly call that he has? He had been on a couple of calls, but was not a weekly participant in those calls. I believe he's been to the White House one or two times. I don't want to confine it to a specific number because it would take a while to figure out how many times. But there have been a lot of people who come to the White House, and --

Q -- when was he at the White House?

MR. FRATTO: I couldn't tell you specifically. I know that there was a picture of him with the President in one of the TV reports, so obviously he met with the President at some point in time.

And so Rev. Haggard joins a growing list of people, like Jack Abramoff, who have been to the White House, but who, according to the White House, haven't really been to the White House. Not in any..er..strict definition of the word been.

Watching the White House try to define the word 'visit' is almost as much fun as watching Clinton try to define the word 'sex'. And if 10 minutes after the scandal broke, Josh Bolten and Karl Rove didn't have an exact list of the dates of each of Haggard's visits, I'd be personally shocked.

Cicero · 11-05-2006, 11:29 AM

I've been to that city, I know it like the back of my hand........ New Life was a thorn in everyone's side and the "Brotherhood" was just as obnoxious. Here Here and cheers. They were intolerant haters which is why the story is so interesting. I guess they are their own example. Do not judge lest you be...... They fought equal rights campaigns as well (showing their politics) and should have their tax rights revoked as well.

I guess their hate and intolerance is not as strong as I had thought. Someone there likes a gay person......

xoxoxoBruce · 11-05-2006, 08:33 PM

Yes, at least one and probably more in the closet.
But notice as soon as it was public, he had to bail.....they're intolerant of him, too. They don't need no stinkin tolerance.

Elspode · 11-07-2006, 01:35 PM

Tolerance is for people who don't hold The Truth (tm). People holding The Truth (tm) can be complete asshats, because they're Believers.

Having The Almighty vouching for your prejudices is pretty handy at times.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

Tolerance is for people who don't hold The Truth (tm). People holding The Truth (tm) can be complete asshats, because they're Believers.

Having The Almighty vouching for your prejudices is pretty handy at times.

The fundamental concept of The Truth (tm) (as a blanket justification/excuse) is so offensive, it makes me wonder how Christians can be so "offended" by people not "respecting" them. After all, I am burning in hell for all eternity, according to what they believe. What could be more offensive than that? :::Pot/Kettle:::

mrnoodle · 11-08-2006, 09:57 AM

The truth takes away excuses, it doesn't provide them. I'm with you on many many points that you've made about hypocrisy, etc. But like xoB said, when one (or several) people fail to live up to their own standards, their personal hypocrisy is to blame. It's not an indictment of the belief system. It's the individual's failure to live up to the tenets of the belief system that is the whole problem. The Truth(tm) is what it is. That's why it's so obvious when someone's not living up to it.

How many times have you seen someone with the little Jesus fish thingie on their car drive like a maniac and put someone in danger? The first thought that crosses my mind is, "Oh yeah, real Christian, that." I imagine the non-Christian's reaction is similar. Why? Because somewhere inside you, you are aware of what The Truth(tm) is supposed to mean, and you are seeing it being trampled on by someone displaying a public advertisement for it.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 10:36 AM

Right, Christianity doesn't have any definable characteristics when you say something bad about it, only when you say something good about it.

Hippikos · 11-08-2006, 10:38 AM

For some people there's something more important than Truth(tm) and that's POWER®

mrnoodle · 11-08-2006, 10:45 AM

Una vez mas:

Christianity means following Christ, it's not open to personal interpretation. If you say something "bad" about Christianity, it must be weighed against that fact. If you say that Christianity is about pushing gays down flights of stairs, you must say that Christ would have pushed gays down flights of stairs. If it's not true, it is not "Christian" by definition. Someone calling themself Christian cannot assign his or her non-Christian actions to Christianity; he or she must take full responsibility for them.

Haggard bought dope from and engaged in sex with a prostitute. Christ would not have done so. That means that Haggard failed to live up to Christ-like standards, not that Christ-like standards are faulty.

mrnoodle · 11-08-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippikos

For some people there's something more important than Truth(tm) and that's POWER®

Haggard seems to be a case in point. But not all 30 million people who belong to the same organization as him.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Christianity means following Christ, it's not open to personal interpretation.

Again, there are two definitions of Christianity, the the on-paper definition, and the observable-in-reality definition.

mrnoodle · 11-08-2006, 11:21 AM

If by "definition" you mean "whatever I want it to mean," yes.

Flint · 11-08-2006, 11:22 AM

No, I mean whatever you want it to mean. If you say you're a Christian I have no reason to doubt you.

Happy Monkey · 11-08-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

No, I mean whatever you want it to mean. If you say you're a Christian I have no reason to doubt you.

That's how feel about definitions of gods.

Spexxvet · 11-08-2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...How many times have you seen someone with the little Jesus fish thingie on their car drive like a maniac and put someone in danger? The first thought that crosses my mind is, "Oh yeah, real Christian, that." ...

If the Christian-ness of this person wasn't being advertised, it would make things more palatable. If people who displayed the fish weren't so ready to try to make everyone behave as they think people should behave, it would make things more palatable. If the Christian actually behaved the way he wants to force everyone else to behave, it would make things more palatable.

11-05-2006, 08:33 PM	#63
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Yes, at least one and probably more in the closet. But notice as soon as it was public, he had to bail.....they're intolerant of him, too. They don't need no stinkin tolerance. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

11-07-2006, 01:35 PM	#64
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Tolerance is for people who don't hold The Truth (tm). People holding The Truth (tm) can be complete asshats, because they're Believers. Having The Almighty vouching for your prejudices is pretty handy at times. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

11-08-2006, 09:57 AM	#66
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	The truth takes away excuses, it doesn't provide them. I'm with you on many many points that you've made about hypocrisy, etc. But like xoB said, when one (or several) people fail to live up to their own standards, their personal hypocrisy is to blame. It's not an indictment of the belief system. It's the individual's failure to live up to the tenets of the belief system that is the whole problem. The Truth(tm) is what it is. That's why it's so obvious when someone's not living up to it. How many times have you seen someone with the little Jesus fish thingie on their car drive like a maniac and put someone in danger? The first thought that crosses my mind is, "Oh yeah, real Christian, that." I imagine the non-Christian's reaction is similar. Why? Because somewhere inside you, you are aware of what The Truth(tm) is supposed to mean, and you are seeing it being trampled on by someone displaying a public advertisement for it. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

11-08-2006, 10:36 AM	#67
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Right, Christianity doesn't have any definable characteristics when you say something bad about it, only when you say something good about it. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-08-2006, 10:38 AM	#68
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	For some people there's something more important than Truth(tm) and that's POWER® __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

11-05-2006, 11:29 AM	#62
Cicero Looking forward to open mic night. Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Mexico Posts: 5,148	I've been to that city, I know it like the back of my hand........ New Life was a thorn in everyone's side and the "Brotherhood" was just as obnoxious. Here Here and cheers. They were intolerant haters which is why the story is so interesting. I guess they are their own example. Do not judge lest you be...... They fought equal rights campaigns as well (showing their politics) and should have their tax rights revoked as well. I guess their hate and intolerance is not as strong as I had thought. Someone there likes a gay person......

11-08-2006, 10:45 AM	#69
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	Una vez mas: Christianity means following Christ, it's not open to personal interpretation. If you say something "bad" about Christianity, it must be weighed against that fact. If you say that Christianity is about pushing gays down flights of stairs, you must say that Christ would have pushed gays down flights of stairs. If it's not true, it is not "Christian" by definition. Someone calling themself Christian cannot assign his or her non-Christian actions to Christianity; he or she must take full responsibility for them. Haggard bought dope from and engaged in sex with a prostitute. Christ would not have done so. That means that Haggard failed to live up to Christ-like standards, not that Christ-like standards are faulty. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

11-08-2006, 11:21 AM	#72
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	If by "definition" you mean "whatever I want it to mean," yes. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

11-08-2006, 11:22 AM	#73
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	No, I mean whatever you want it to mean. If you say you're a Christian I have no reason to doubt you. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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