Which one of you cowards is Ferd Sheed? - Page 7

Flint · 04-20-2016, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

On the bathroom thing I'm undecided. The trans population is awfully small from what I've seen/heard. Is making public restrooms more comfortable for them, worth giving carte blanche to a much larger population of perverts? Those unintended consequences are murder.

Bruce, if I were The Onion, the headline would be "straight, white male perverts used as excuse by straight, white male bigots to discriminate against trans people"

*If the problem were gay male rapists, they could have already done that in the men's room, like discrimination against gay people using straight people's bathrooms claimed they would, but never did.

*If the problem were black male rapists they could have already done that in the men's room, like discrimination against black people using white people's bathrooms claimed they would, but never did.

Using bathroom laws, and rape-scare tactics, to discriminate against minority groups, is not a new thing.

xoxoxoBruce · 04-20-2016, 05:51 PM

How do you tell if a man is gay or a rapist? How do you tell if a Black man is a rapist and who is he raping in the men's room? Those herrings aren't even pink.

Nobody's saying go shit in the woods, public restrooms are for everyone as they have been... except in the south. However the question remains, is it worth allowing the perverts to double their territory, to make a very small group more comfortable in the rest room? Should anyone be comfortable in a public restroom?
I can see pros and cons, and because it doesn't affect me, I don't have personal bias to sway me. That makes it difficult to decide whether noble or practical is more important.

Personally, my prostate wouldn't wait in line at the ladies room.

Flint · 04-20-2016, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

How do you tell if ...

How do you tell if a trans person is using the restroom?

Still waiting for an explanation of the reasoning behind this epic flaw in "thinking things through."

xoxoxoBruce · 04-20-2016, 05:57 PM

If a person has a dress and a beard it's a pretty good bet. If they pass for a man or woman, then it's not a problem and it doesn't matter what the law is.

Flint · 04-20-2016, 06:02 PM

So the problem you're characterizing here is that many people think that they do not know any trans folks. It's the same excuse that allowed passive racism to flourish under segregation, "Not knowing any better." The problem is that people do know trans people, they just don't know they know them, nor realize that they'd probably look a hell of a lot more unusual if they were dressed as their birth gender. Why don't people know that they're trans? Because they're hiding in the shadows of society, because they're afraid of getting the shit beat out of them by bigots who hate anyone different than themselves.

xoxoxoBruce · 04-20-2016, 06:13 PM

Don't put words in my mouth. I said it doesn't affect ME. I will continue to use the same as I always have. Noble or practical is my choice, because of that.

Flint · 04-20-2016, 06:50 PM

Didn't intend to put words in your mouth, I think we have a misunderstanding. When you said "dress and a beard" I assume you're joking--I assume you understand we're not talking about "cross dressers" as if from a Monty Python sketch. The problem I meant to say your joke (I assumed) referred to is if people really thought that is what we're talking about, because they're unfamiliar with what trans people actually are. Now that I look at it, that's a lot of assumptions, so let's say I made an "ass of me" and I apologize.

Undertoad · 04-20-2016, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Why don't people know that they're trans? Because they're hiding in the shadows of society, because they're afraid of getting the shit beat out of them by bigots who hate anyone different than themselves.

I'm like, kinda sorta with you on one hand, and on the other hand look at flint so CUTE with his new toy! But MAN the thing I hate the most is when lefties assume both the moral high ground *and* faux expertise about an issue.

"Trans" now having been painted with this super-broad brush ("people being BULLIED!"), because it fits the notion of anti-trans is just like racism!, now suddenly NOT! WE ARE NOT talking about "cross dressers" as if from a Monty Python sketch.

Wait, why not? "trans" accounts for a very wide description of people, some of whom are exactly like you describe and being bullied, and others who are:

Mike who likes to wear something frilly on Saturday night and is perfectly content with that level of crossover, would not go further;

Liza who has had the surgery and has lived as a woman for 25 years; and now considers herself a woman, not a trans, and is frankly way more concerned about women's issues;

Martine who is a woman, lesbian and doesn't actually think of herself as trans, but looks so masculine that she is regularly considered trans and doesn't mind the label if she can use men's accoutrements;

Jane, bio male who lives as a woman, and black-markets what she thinks are the right steroids from Canada, but intends to never get the surgery. If you tell her she's not passing, ever, at all, she will be VERY angry.

George who is a "cross dresser" as in a Monty Python sketch. Does it for fun. May enjoy it too much, he's not saying.

Jennifer, who first thought she was George, then thought she was Mike, then thought she was Jane, and is now Liza.

(I have known them all.)

Flint · 04-20-2016, 07:49 PM

Oh, hey yeah there's tons of nuance. It's not a contest, though, the point is that if the source of well-meaning but passively trans-phobic people's issues are lack of familiarity with who we're talking about, by design because society at large feels icky about discussing it, and the minority group themselves are statistically, astronomically more likely to face violence because of openly being who they are, then even my pseudo-progressive, privileged cis-splaining of the issue, ham-handed though it may be, it still better than keeping quiet and passively participating in the false reality of binary genders.

xoxoxoBruce · 04-20-2016, 07:56 PM

It was an attempt at humor, a trans would surely shave. But my point is if they can pass for male or female, there won't be a problem regardless of the law. It's only if they cause trouble, or make a scene, would the law be brought into it.

Reminds me of the problem of cops pulling someone over and getting hit by a car going by. The driver couldn't be prosecuted for an accident unless they could prove some violation. So many states passed laws that if you see a cop with someone pulled over, you have to get out of that right lane, or if you can't, crawl by. It won't change much but if a cop gets hit they can now charge the driver with that new law.

Now if a trans goes in the ladies room, and on closer inspection, voice, hanging out rather than going in a stall then leaving, and obviously appears male, then all the ladies feel uncomfortable. Now we've traded one person being uncomfortable for several being uncomfortable. That's where noble vs practical comes in my mind.

Flint · 04-20-2016, 08:06 PM

Bruce, you often bring a perspective to things that feels honestly a little out of left field to me at first, but--usually--I can come around to at least halfway understanding or agreeing with. Sometimes I think you have side points that are barely related to the subject, but that's cool, because I think it's awesome that people come at thing from different angles. In this case, I hear what you're saying, but really, do you really think the intent of these laws isn't just to stir up unnecessary confrontations regarding an issue that wouldn't have been an issue (in exactly the way you're describing it not being an issue!) if they simply hadn't felt the need to pass the goddamned inflammatory law in the first place? Really, the whole thing is epic shit-stirring, and ultimately will result in a national dialogue where we decide, once again, that people who aren't bigots don't like bigots, and won't tolerate regressive laws based on hatred of minority groups.

Flint · 04-20-2016, 08:16 PM

Oh and props to UT, because "some of his best friends are trans"

monster · 04-20-2016, 08:28 PM

When you take into account the cost of the studies and plans and legal crap, it'd probably be a lot cheaper in the long run to have several single stall restrooms with handwashing facilities inside opening into a public area. Or separate restrooms for kids only. Consider this; There are women who lure kids away for the sexual pleasure of men. Myra Hindley. There are juveniles who kill young kids. Jamie Bulger. the world is fucked up. Are the kids not already at the same risk? Parents, look after your kids. If the bathrooms are unigender, you can go in with them. if you're not there and you don't think it's safe ....why aren't you there?

xoxoxoBruce · 04-20-2016, 08:42 PM

No I don't think it was shit stirring although the political arena being what it is, that's possible.
But if any man goes into the ladies room, what can they do about it other than harass him? What can they charge him with if he doesn't do anything in there. They can't even charge him with trespassing in a public rest room. With this law about natural born gender they have a tool to punish him.

That's just my reasoning on this law, as I don't think it would prevent anything, just give them a tool if someone's a problem. But I'm aware of unintended consequences and seemingly harmless laws passed today, can come back to bite us all tomorrow.

I haven't heard what the lawmakers stated reasons were, some bullshit excuse to cover the real intent? Harass trans people? Garner bigot votes? I'm not privy to their motives.

Flint · 04-20-2016, 08:46 PM

Are you trolling me?

04-20-2016, 05:51 PM	#92
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	How do you tell if a man is gay or a rapist? How do you tell if a Black man is a rapist and who is he raping in the men's room? Those herrings aren't even pink. Nobody's saying go shit in the woods, public restrooms are for everyone as they have been... except in the south. However the question remains, is it worth allowing the perverts to double their territory, to make a very small group more comfortable in the rest room? Should anyone be comfortable in a public restroom? I can see pros and cons, and because it doesn't affect me, I don't have personal bias to sway me. That makes it difficult to decide whether noble or practical is more important. Personally, my prostate wouldn't wait in line at the ladies room. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-20-2016, 05:57 PM	#94
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	If a person has a dress and a beard it's a pretty good bet. If they pass for a man or woman, then it's not a problem and it doesn't matter what the law is. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-20-2016, 06:02 PM	#95
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	So the problem you're characterizing here is that many people think that they do not know any trans folks. It's the same excuse that allowed passive racism to flourish under segregation, "Not knowing any better." The problem is that people do know trans people, they just don't know they know them, nor realize that they'd probably look a hell of a lot more unusual if they were dressed as their birth gender. Why don't people know that they're trans? Because they're hiding in the shadows of society, because they're afraid of getting the shit beat out of them by bigots who hate anyone different than themselves. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

04-20-2016, 06:13 PM	#96
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Don't put words in my mouth. I said it doesn't affect ME. I will continue to use the same as I always have. Noble or practical is my choice, because of that. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-20-2016, 06:50 PM	#97
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Didn't intend to put words in your mouth, I think we have a misunderstanding. When you said "dress and a beard" I assume you're joking--I assume you understand we're not talking about "cross dressers" as if from a Monty Python sketch. The problem I meant to say your joke (I assumed) referred to is if people really thought that is what we're talking about, because they're unfamiliar with what trans people actually are. Now that I look at it, that's a lot of assumptions, so let's say I made an "ass of me" and I apologize. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

04-20-2016, 07:49 PM	#99
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Oh, hey yeah there's tons of nuance. It's not a contest, though, the point is that if the source of well-meaning but passively trans-phobic people's issues are lack of familiarity with who we're talking about, by design because society at large feels icky about discussing it, and the minority group themselves are statistically, astronomically more likely to face violence because of openly being who they are, then even my pseudo-progressive, privileged cis-splaining of the issue, ham-handed though it may be, it still better than keeping quiet and passively participating in the false reality of binary genders. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

04-20-2016, 07:56 PM	#100
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	It was an attempt at humor, a trans would surely shave. But my point is if they can pass for male or female, there won't be a problem regardless of the law. It's only if they cause trouble, or make a scene, would the law be brought into it. Reminds me of the problem of cops pulling someone over and getting hit by a car going by. The driver couldn't be prosecuted for an accident unless they could prove some violation. So many states passed laws that if you see a cop with someone pulled over, you have to get out of that right lane, or if you can't, crawl by. It won't change much but if a cop gets hit they can now charge the driver with that new law. Now if a trans goes in the ladies room, and on closer inspection, voice, hanging out rather than going in a stall then leaving, and obviously appears male, then all the ladies feel uncomfortable. Now we've traded one person being uncomfortable for several being uncomfortable. That's where noble vs practical comes in my mind. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-20-2016, 08:06 PM	#101
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Bruce, you often bring a perspective to things that feels honestly a little out of left field to me at first, but--usually--I can come around to at least halfway understanding or agreeing with. Sometimes I think you have side points that are barely related to the subject, but that's cool, because I think it's awesome that people come at thing from different angles. In this case, I hear what you're saying, but really, do you really think the intent of these laws isn't just to stir up unnecessary confrontations regarding an issue that wouldn't have been an issue (in exactly the way you're describing it not being an issue!) if they simply hadn't felt the need to pass the goddamned inflammatory law in the first place? Really, the whole thing is epic shit-stirring, and ultimately will result in a national dialogue where we decide, once again, that people who aren't bigots don't like bigots, and won't tolerate regressive laws based on hatred of minority groups. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 04-20-2016 at 08:12 PM.

04-20-2016, 08:16 PM	#102
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Oh and props to UT, because "some of his best friends are trans" __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

04-20-2016, 08:28 PM	#103
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	When you take into account the cost of the studies and plans and legal crap, it'd probably be a lot cheaper in the long run to have several single stall restrooms with handwashing facilities inside opening into a public area. Or separate restrooms for kids only. Consider this; There are women who lure kids away for the sexual pleasure of men. Myra Hindley. There are juveniles who kill young kids. Jamie Bulger. the world is fucked up. Are the kids not already at the same risk? Parents, look after your kids. If the bathrooms are unigender, you can go in with them. if you're not there and you don't think it's safe ....why aren't you there? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

04-20-2016, 08:42 PM	#104
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	No I don't think it was shit stirring although the political arena being what it is, that's possible. But if any man goes into the ladies room, what can they do about it other than harass him? What can they charge him with if he doesn't do anything in there. They can't even charge him with trespassing in a public rest room. With this law about natural born gender they have a tool to punish him. That's just my reasoning on this law, as I don't think it would prevent anything, just give them a tool if someone's a problem. But I'm aware of unintended consequences and seemingly harmless laws passed today, can come back to bite us all tomorrow. I haven't heard what the lawmakers stated reasons were, some bullshit excuse to cover the real intent? Harass trans people? Garner bigot votes? I'm not privy to their motives. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-20-2016, 08:46 PM	#105
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Are you trolling me? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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