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Old 10-07-2003, 09:03 AM   #1
Whit
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What is a "successful relationship?"

      I was just reading over UT's 'Emotionally Distant' thread in home base when I got to thinking about the phrase, "successful relationship." What the hell is that?
      To me a relationship is successful when everyone involved comes out of it better than they went into it. By this standard I've had several successful relationships. However, society seems to place importance on the continuation of the relationship. Even calling long term harmful relationships successful as long as the parties involved choose to stick together. At the same time, people that come together make each other better and stronger are said to have failed when they go their separate ways.
      Why is this? Also, is it correct?

      By the by, I realize that this is pretty insensitive in light of what UT is going through. Still, I believe that it's a valid point of discussion and that UT won't be offended as it falls right into the development through discussion that he seems to have created the site for. I hope I'm right about that UT, no offense meant.
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Old 10-07-2003, 09:55 AM   #2
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None taken, discuss away.
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Old 10-07-2003, 11:27 AM   #3
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Whit is concerned about being insensitive? What the hell is this world coming to?
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Old 10-07-2003, 12:18 PM   #4
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"Success" is defined by the original goal. So to guage if a relationship is successful, it depends entirely on what one wanted to get out of it. If one enters a relationship not knowing what they want to get out of it, then it would proabbly be best guaged by what that person wants out of life itself. Of course the goal can change over the course of the relationship.

Also, success is an incremental measure, things tend to be successful in varying degrees. If you get dumped by someone, but you took something good from the experience, then it is partially successsful. If you both leave the relationship willingly, as mutual frends, I'd call that successful. But that's was how I approached relationships, looking only to have some fun, get to know somebody better, make someone genuinely happy, and learn some things about life. In that sense, every relationship I've had has been successful to some degree. Depending on where the relationship went, I'd upgrade my goals appropriately.

The grand success is the sustained relationship, with both parties putting in effort, and the happiness, love, and individual self-worth far outweigh the pain, sadness, and anger. That's my opinion, anyway.

There. That's my pompous, like-to-hear-myself-type response. I wish I had a monocle.
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Old 10-07-2003, 12:54 PM   #5
Whit
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Quote:
From Juju:
Whit is concerned about being insensitive? What the hell is this world coming to?
      Feh, of course I'm concearned about it. Rudness could derail what would be an otherwise interesting thread. Also, I like UT enough to be nice. Thirdly, if you notice I didn't apologize, I just explained my position. Which UT accepted I might add. So, no insensitivity problem here.

      So, HP, why is it that a long relationship with small gains is considered more "successful" than a short one with large gains?
      I like the changing goals part. It suggests that two people should really stay together only as long as their goals may be furthered by continuing the relationship.
      Er ... maybe now is good time to mention, I'm pretty much a loner. I've had several serious relationships, but no marrige. The idea of marrige sounds a bit nutty to me. I say this so that you people understand the perspective I'm coming from.
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Old 10-07-2003, 01:13 PM   #6
hot_pastrami
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whit
So, HP, why is it that a long relationship with small gains is considered more "successful" than a short one with large gains?
Well, firstly, I don't think the gains from the relationship I described are small. They can be enormous. That's what makes it a grand success. I have had some awesome short-term relationships where I learned a lot, and enjoyed the hell out of it. But they were nothing compared to the married relationship I'm in now.

I guess it goes back to the matter of goals... the size and difficulty of the goal determines the attached success. Which is more difficult... being happy and having fun in a short-term relationship, or being just as happy and having just as much fun in a long-term relationship? I've never been happier or had more fun than I do married... and I was a swinging cat for awhile there when I was single.

But I see your point in one aspect... long-term relationships, in which neither person is particularly happy, are still considered a success by some people. I think this is a matter of some peoples' fucked up priorities, and nothing more. Those are the people who live in fear of "ending up alone," and put finding companionship ahead of finding happiness, instead of realizing that if they can have only one or the other, they should go for happiness. Having both is great, but happiness should be required, and companionship optional.
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Old 10-07-2003, 01:25 PM   #7
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      Okay, I'll go with that. Now, any idea why people feel they have to be with somebody? I've asked a bunch of people that through their actions show that they feel that way, but they always either deny it (often even act insulted) or say they don't know.
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Old 10-07-2003, 01:27 PM   #8
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Hmm... that's a pretty deep question.

I tend to follow HP's line of thinking, I see where the word "successful" and it's usage is the point of the question.

I think longevity has changed into the word successful, because for the older (and by older, I mean older than me, the 45 and up year olds) folks, many of their parents were together for 20, 30, and 40 years, while the younger folks go through marriages like bad presidents. (And I'm on #4 in 16 years, so I can say that.)

We defined the people who were tenacious and understanding and/or stubborn enough to stick out the lifetime commitment that marriage USED to be, by saying the relationship was "successful".

Partially, I think it has to with the sputtering demise of religion (ANY religion) and the politics of the 80's. Everything is about me, me, me and what I can take and grab, and if you aren't helping me, you're hindering me and I need to get rid of you. Disagreement = different philosophy, and I don't have time or PATIENCE to argue with you about it.

Meantime, "back in the day", more people were more religious, and took marriage more seriously. It really was a commitment before God, and not a "simple legal contract" that is relatively easy to get out of now.

I'm babbling. Probably because I'm at work, and can't pay a whole lot of attention to what I'm doing. Does any of this make sense to you?

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Old 10-07-2003, 02:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whit
Okay, I'll go with that. Now, any idea why people feel they have to be with somebody? I've asked a bunch of people that through their actions show that they feel that way, but they always either deny it (often even act insulted) or say they don't know.
Well, I can only speak from personal experience and observation, and I personally never felt like I absolutely HAD to be with someone. So my insight may lack in usefulness.

All the way through high school and college, I was pretty much a loner, I didn't start socializing much until later in life. I'd dated some, but hadn't made any attempts at really connecting with someobody. I was dating because I was supposed to, not because I wanted to. People, and in particular women, were a mystery to me. I am the sort of fellow who tends to have a few close friends rather than a large number of acquaintences. But I was happy with my life.

I realized something after a while. I hated dating, but I loved being with women. I figured a lot of shit out at that point in my life, and as a result I started really enjoying dating, because I developed a different take on it. I wasn't trying to impress anybody, I was just trying to enjoy life. I loved and lost, but it was a great learning experience. I had been happy alone, but I was happier when I was sharing life with people. Long story short, I then found someone who was so wonderful, and so perfect for me, that I wanted to share everything with her.

All that stuff above isn't even the answer to your question, that's just background so you'll know where I'm coming from.

As for your question, here's my theory: All people need to feel valuable. A person's self-worth defines them. People base their own worth on many different things, but you'll find two extremes to the scale... those who define their worth solely on their own morals and ambitions, and those who define their worth based on the opinions and feedback of others.

The latter is an example of a person who MUST be with somebody to feel they have worth. In order to feel like a whole, good person, they require someone to choose them, and them alone.

The former is an example of a loner who is happy with their life. They don't require anyone to reinforce their self-image. But the fact that they don't require approval of others does not negate their ability to find joy in the company of others. For that reason, I see this sort of person as more emotionally mature.

Of course this is the sort of thing people can change, particularly if they identify it. It happened to me, to a degree.
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Old 10-07-2003, 02:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whit
...I've asked a bunch of people that through their actions show that they feel that way, but they always either deny it (often even act insulted) or say they don't know.
The theory also explains this tendency. The person you are asking is sensitive to the perceptoin of others. You ask them this question, they perceive it as criticism, and defend themselves from what they wrongly view as an attack.
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Old 10-07-2003, 03:38 PM   #11
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Up until a short time ago, I was one of those people who "needed" a man to be happy. It's low self-esteem that makes people need approval and acceptance from others to be happy.

Then a relationship I thought was "THE ONE" ended extremely badly. I was suicidal. Planning it out. Then Kelle came home from Croatia and I realized exactly what I was doing, and WHY I was doing it, and suddenly everything clicked into place.

My mother had told me for years that I only had to love myself, and that any man that wanted to be in my life would fit right in. She said to live happy on your own, and if someone ADDS to that, great, but if not, you're still happy on your own. Finally that clicked. At that moment, I made the decision to move from Vegas to NC and make a completely fresh start.

The world began to look completely different. Things that people said that I would have been completely hurt over became "someone's opinion". I stopped caring what people thought about my clothes or what I said or what music I listened to. Things were ALOT better.

I even started posting here more, because I was no longer afraid of getting ripped a new one. I see alot of my former self in Luv now, and was deathly afraid of being on the other end of what went her way. But then I realized if I allowed someone to hurt my feelings (1) that I didn't know and (2) was done over the internet, not even face to face and (3) that chances are I'll probably never meet; then that's my own dumb ass fault.

I could go on with examples for a long time, so here's the heart of the already-too-long reply:

People in general are in a state of denial about their weaknesses. The adage that you are your own worst critic is one of the truest. Most likely they know their shortcomings and are too lazy/too weak/too scared to change it. Change is scary. Moving out of that comfort zone is terrifying. I agree with HP in this.
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Old 10-07-2003, 08:28 PM   #12
xoxoxoBruce
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Random thoughts.
Being alone is the most untolerable human condition. You can live with 14 people and feel alone. You can be married and feel alone. You can live a million miles from anyone and not feel alone if you have some way to communicate with people.

People change, grow if you will. The reason many marriages don't last longer is the people change in different directions and no longer have common interests or goals, Nobodys fault, just is.

Personally, a successful marriage is one that begins and ends, amicably. To be able to honestly say "It was good while it lasted" and "We're still friends" is all anyone could ask from a marriage.
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Old 10-08-2003, 04:48 PM   #13
warch
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Everyone is alone. You come in alone and go out of this life alone. Now alone is not the same as lonely. Your most profound and successful relationship should be with yourself, finding happiness and fulfillment there.
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Old 10-08-2003, 05:09 PM   #14
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My mother had a couple boyfriends when I was younger (my parents divorced before this, very early). There were only a few that I knew about, but she gave up on relationships in the mid '80s. She has been "alone" ever since and she is proud of it. I wish I could be like her.
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Old 10-08-2003, 05:42 PM   #15
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I thought you were with... uhm... gee. Someone else on here. Maybe it's just a brother or something? Who do you know in real life that also posts here?
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