Race to the Top Education

skysidhe · 09-12-2010, 07:10 PM

Testing the Chinese way. Article from The New York Times.

We were living in China, where their school blended a mostly Western elementary school curriculum with the emphasis on discipline and testing that typifies Asian educational styles. In Asia, such a march of tests for young children was regarded as normal, and not evil or particularly anxiety provoking. That made for some interesting culture clashes. I remember nearly constant tension between the Asian parents, who wanted still more tests and homework, and the Western parents, who were more concerned with whether their kids were having fun — and wanted less.

But recently, American education’s “no test” philosophy for young children has been coming under assault, as government programs strongly promote the practice.
First there was No Child Left Behind, which took effect in 2003 and required states to give all students standardized tests to measure school progress.
Now, President Obama’s Race to the Top educational competition — which announced billions of dollars in state grants this month — includes and encourages more reliance on what educators call “formative tests” or “formative assessments.” These are not the big once-a-year or once-in-a-lifetime exams, like the SATs, but a stream of smaller, less monumental tests, designed in theory, at least, primarily to help students and their teachers know how they’re doing.
Some education experts hail the change as a step forward from the ideological dark ages. “Research has long shown that more frequent testing is beneficial to kids, but educators have resisted this finding,” said Gregory J. Cizek, a professor of educational measurement and evaluation at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

But Professor Cizek, who started his career as a second-grade teacher, said the prevailing philosophy of offering young children unconditional praise and support was probably not the best prescription for successful education. “What’s best for kids is frequent testing, where even if they do badly, they can get help and improve and have the satisfaction of doing better,” he said. “Kids don’t get self-esteem by people just telling them they are wonderful.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/we...l?pagewanted=1

monster · 09-12-2010, 07:16 PM

So what do you think about this?

skysidhe · 09-12-2010, 07:30 PM

Why? You don't like cut and pasting? ok

This is one persons experience with the Asian educational system. I doubt we will become so regimented. I don't know if there is any real connection between her experiences and Obama's race to the top program.

I do agree with the statement by Professor Cizek, however. Overpraise and underachievement hasn't been good for our educational system. The only area we are still good at competition is in the area of sports, and that by it's very nature. I think we should up the anti a little as far as educational achievements but I do not really know how the Asian educational system relates to Obama's race to the top program.

I am reading about that right now.

monster · 09-12-2010, 08:04 PM

right. I don't like cut and paste with no added thought.

the overpraise thing happens in sports too. "Yay! you were present at six kindergarten soccer games. Here's a trophy."

If it still works for sports, why doesn't it work for academics?

Here in Ann Arbor, We have many Chinese, Korean and Japanese families. A lot of them are med interns at the U of M hospital. They are all about the academic excellence and the sporting excellence -in swimming and figure skating. Their kids are amazing. They seem happy. But you know what? The parents are not happy. Well not in an American/British sense of the word. Their entire lives revolve around making sure their kids get the best academic grades and win their sporting events. And when that happens, they are happy. But the law of probability says mostly that doesn't happen, so mostly they are disappointed. What sort of happy is that? And what purpose is this serving? Their kids can go on and have the same life... hurrah....

I'll take happy kids now and happy kids in the future, thanks. With a free serving of no more testing memorized shit that means nothing to the memorizer. kthnx.

skysidhe · 09-12-2010, 08:29 PM

It's a matter of tradition and pride I suppose. Happiness is a good thing but to each their own.

From the little I read, the states propose the educational standards, and then the grants are awarded. I have not been able to find specifics, probably because the standards have yet to be revealed.

I hope it isn't more testing as in the No Child Left Behind kind of testing. I wouldn't think so, since it has been a dismal failure. I believe, from what I have read that math and science will be more standardized from state to state. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I am wondering. Will an increase in American math and science majors diminish the need for high tech worker visas? It doesn't seem to be our mode of operation to pay our own when we can get another countries math and science majors at half the price. I know that is defeatist but what will be the benefit if the big corporations don't change the way they do business. More highly degree-d unemployed?

I do agree with what you said about Happiness. Everyone should want happy kids now and in the future. Happiness is a great thing to possess.

squirell nutkin · 09-12-2010, 08:35 PM

No Child Left Behind
Race To The Top

When are we gonna see
No More Fucking Bullshit Passing As Education?

How about 1) Get rid of non performing teachers (meaning teachers who suck at teaching or are just burned out
2) Give the teachers something to work with and some authority
3) Make the parents step to the plate and take some responsibility
4) yyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bullshit

skysidhe · 09-12-2010, 08:41 PM

Except this time, it is the states passing the standards.
The government is just passing the buck. (unintended pun)

monster · 09-12-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirell nutkin

No Child Left Behind
Race To The Top

When are we gonna see
No More Fucking Bullshit Passing As Education?

How about 1) Get rid of non performing teachers (meaning teachers who suck at teaching or are just burned out
2) Give the teachers something to work with and some authority
3) Make the parents step to the plate and take some responsibility
4) yyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bullshit

this post makes me happy. this is totally what heppens in our (alternate program) school that doesn't happen so much in the mainstream.

monster · 09-12-2010, 09:20 PM

(it makes me happy because I was beginning to feel it was only us that felt like this)

xoxoxoBruce · 09-12-2010, 10:38 PM

Make 'em earn their self esteem. But unfortunately, most kid's source of self esteem is from their parents, so if the parent demands perfection, or the opposite extreme, indifferent, the kid is screwed.

GunMaster357 · 09-13-2010, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirell nutkin

No Child Left Behind
Race To The Top

When are we gonna see
No More Fucking Bullshit Passing As Education?

How about 1) Get rid of non performing teachers (meaning teachers who suck at teaching or are just burned out
2) Give the teachers something to work with and some authority
3) Make the parents step to the plate and take some responsibility
4) yyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bullshit

In France, our Education System is different. But I wholeheartedly agree with 1) and 2).

I don't have children so I am not exactly a good judge of the system. Nontheless I've seen everything go downhill for about 30 years now.

The rules were : don't disturb the critters, hence less and less tests, less and less content in classes.

I see it in my younger colleagues : awful grammar and spelling skills, little no knowledge about history/geography, understanding of foreign languages that is abysmal.

The current government tries to get back to at least a good teaching of French, but as a group, the teachers in state schools are saying 'no'.

In reality, grading tests is work and they don't want to. And their status as public servants is such that you cannot fire them unless they kill a child. Molesting would lead only to a transfer away.

I remember my mother (retired private school sector teacher) who usually graded 4 tests a week (French, Math, Sciences, History/Geography) all year long.

Sundae · 09-13-2010, 11:48 AM

In "my" school, in "my" year (age 6-7) we do not criticise the children.
However, according to the child's ability, mistakes are pointed out.

[all names are replaced]
If Jim gets his name right at the top of the page, without prompting, he is praised.
If Hayley does not use capital letters or full stops, that is pointed out to her.
Caitlyn is made aware of every spelling mistake.

We run the gamut from children with actual learning disabilities [receiving support from specialists] to children able to read 2-3 years above their age group. The idea is to judge the results according to the child's ability and always try to push them beyond their comfort zone.

Every single child has a spelling test every single week.
Those with difficulties (ie Jim) get their own words.
Every other child gets the standard spellings. And I did mark children with 1/8 or 2/8.
It's not just a tick and a cross though, it's explaining what was missing, using the THRASS system, sounding the word out and writing the correct spelling.

Same with maths.
Awesome Addition for example.
We had children on Level 11, and some of those on the top table for Literacy (Caitlyn for example) were still on Level 2. Whereas Jamie - in a special class for Literacy, was on Level 8.

I'm not a big fan of tests for littlies.
Not official ones, anyway.
I am a fan of regular tests as a way of learning.
I like that when I try to talk children through problems I can say, "Well you know what 8 + 2 is don't you? So what's another 2?" or "I know you know that word, because you spelled it right last week."

This is how I grew up, and therefore I'm biased.
Given that it's the way children are taught where I work, the bias is multiplied.
But to me it seems to work.
Children at the lower end of the scale still work towards acheiving a personal best.
The results are not read out in the classroom (although peers compare I admit) so no shame or grading is incurred.

And this is a school that teaches discipline.
You do NOT talk in class. Or in the corridors. You enter a class silently and sit on the mat. You raise your hand to speak. You replace your chair under the table when you stand up or leave. You are polite to all adults and let them pass in the corridors. And all that jazz. I'm learning with the children this year - I had no idea how big a gulf there was between 6 and 7

I suspect I'm a little more disciplinarian than Miss N, because I got used to the older kids... and Ms Mc last year. I have no doubt they'll all shape up though, they're all decent kids.

In "my" school, at least at the level of Year 2, I think a child's happiness depends on their homelife and their classmates, and guidance from the staff to encourage them to learn.

It's a wonderful school.

Clodfobble · 09-13-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Those with difficulties (ie Jim) get their own words.
Every other child gets the standard spellings.
...

We had children on Level 11, and some of those on the top table for Literacy (Caitlyn for example) were still on Level 2. Whereas Jamie - in a special class for Literacy, was on Level 8.

This is what's missing in our system. If "Jim" has trouble spelling, he does not get his own words, or get specialist tutoring unless his parents push hard for legal recognition of a learning disability (which they mostly won't, because their little angel is perfect, don't you know, and the school sure as hell isn't going to pay for a specialist if they don't legally have to.) The teacher is simply told that if Jim doesn't pass the standardized test with the other students, she will be held accountable, and eventually fired. So the teacher spends all of her time desperately trying to drag Jim and two or three other kids up to everyone else's level, and is forced to neglect everyone who can already pass the test, whether they are at level 8, 11, or anywhere in between.

squirell nutkin · 09-13-2010, 06:36 PM

Yeah, if you "hike at the pace of the slowest hiker" you'll never leave the frigging trailhead.

Lamplighter · 12-27-2010, 01:59 PM

The mission is education, but job-training is just one of the hidden expectations.
So, at times, grades become the ultimate goal for some students and/or parents.

NY Times - 12/25/10
A Quest to Explain What Grades Really Mean

Quote:

It could be a Zen koan: if everybody in the class gets an A, what does an A mean ?

A corollary is: if everybody in the class gets an C, what does an C mean ?

Quote:

With college grades creeping ever higher,
a few universities have taken direct action against grade inflation.
Most notably, Princeton adopted guidelines in 2004 providing that
no more than 35 percent of undergraduate grades should be A’s,
a policy that remains controversial on campus.

Others have taken a less direct approach,
leaving instructors free to award whatever grades they like
but expanding their transcripts to include information
giving graduate schools and employers a fuller picture
of what the grades mean.
<snip>
Studies of grade inflation have found that private universities generally give higher grades than public ones,
and that humanities courses award higher grades than science and math classes.

The article describes several schools that include a calculated "median grade" in the transcript.

Quote:

“It’s complicated, it’s controversial, and it runs into campus political opposition
from all sorts of directions you might not anticipate,” Mr. Nassirian said,
adding that transcripts with too much extra information can become unwieldy.

But the "median" seems cumbersome and hides information,
when it's the "cumulative percentile" or "rank" that is more informative.
Median: half of the grades are higher, half are lower
Rank: relative position within all grades of the class/school.
The advantage of a "cumulative percentile" is that it shows the distribution of grades in the group,
so it's immediately evident when there are clusters of grades: high, low, or in the middle

09-12-2010, 07:10 PM	#1
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Race to the Top Education Testing the Chinese way. Article from The New York Times. We were living in China, where their school blended a mostly Western elementary school curriculum with the emphasis on discipline and testing that typifies Asian educational styles. In Asia, such a march of tests for young children was regarded as normal, and not evil or particularly anxiety provoking. That made for some interesting culture clashes. I remember nearly constant tension between the Asian parents, who wanted still more tests and homework, and the Western parents, who were more concerned with whether their kids were having fun — and wanted less. But recently, American education’s “no test” philosophy for young children has been coming under assault, as government programs strongly promote the practice. First there was No Child Left Behind, which took effect in 2003 and required states to give all students standardized tests to measure school progress. Now, President Obama’s Race to the Top educational competition — which announced billions of dollars in state grants this month — includes and encourages more reliance on what educators call “formative tests” or “formative assessments.” These are not the big once-a-year or once-in-a-lifetime exams, like the SATs, but a stream of smaller, less monumental tests, designed in theory, at least, primarily to help students and their teachers know how they’re doing. Some education experts hail the change as a step forward from the ideological dark ages. “Research has long shown that more frequent testing is beneficial to kids, but educators have resisted this finding,” said Gregory J. Cizek, a professor of educational measurement and evaluation at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill But Professor Cizek, who started his career as a second-grade teacher, said the prevailing philosophy of offering young children unconditional praise and support was probably not the best prescription for successful education. “What’s best for kids is frequent testing, where even if they do badly, they can get help and improve and have the satisfaction of doing better,” he said. “Kids don’t get self-esteem by people just telling them they are wonderful.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/we...l?pagewanted=1

09-12-2010, 07:16 PM	#2
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	So what do you think about this? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-12-2010, 08:04 PM	#4
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	right. I don't like cut and paste with no added thought. the overpraise thing happens in sports too. "Yay! you were present at six kindergarten soccer games. Here's a trophy." If it still works for sports, why doesn't it work for academics? Here in Ann Arbor, We have many Chinese, Korean and Japanese families. A lot of them are med interns at the U of M hospital. They are all about the academic excellence and the sporting excellence -in swimming and figure skating. Their kids are amazing. They seem happy. But you know what? The parents are not happy. Well not in an American/British sense of the word. Their entire lives revolve around making sure their kids get the best academic grades and win their sporting events. And when that happens, they are happy. But the law of probability says mostly that doesn't happen, so mostly they are disappointed. What sort of happy is that? And what purpose is this serving? Their kids can go on and have the same life... hurrah.... I'll take happy kids now and happy kids in the future, thanks. With a free serving of no more testing memorized shit that means nothing to the memorizer. kthnx. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-12-2010, 08:35 PM	#6
squirell nutkin has a second hand user title Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in a Nut House Posts: 2,017	No Child Left Behind Race To The Top When are we gonna see No More Fucking Bullshit Passing As Education? How about 1) Get rid of non performing teachers (meaning teachers who suck at teaching or are just burned out 2) Give the teachers something to work with and some authority 3) Make the parents step to the plate and take some responsibility 4) yyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bullshit __________________ And now I'm finished posting.

09-12-2010, 09:20 PM	#9
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	(it makes me happy because I was beginning to feel it was only us that felt like this) __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-12-2010, 07:30 PM	#3
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Why? You don't like cut and pasting? ok This is one persons experience with the Asian educational system. I doubt we will become so regimented. I don't know if there is any real connection between her experiences and Obama's race to the top program. I do agree with the statement by Professor Cizek, however. Overpraise and underachievement hasn't been good for our educational system. The only area we are still good at competition is in the area of sports, and that by it's very nature. I think we should up the anti a little as far as educational achievements but I do not really know how the Asian educational system relates to Obama's race to the top program. I am reading about that right now.

09-12-2010, 08:29 PM	#5
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	It's a matter of tradition and pride I suppose. Happiness is a good thing but to each their own. From the little I read, the states propose the educational standards, and then the grants are awarded. I have not been able to find specifics, probably because the standards have yet to be revealed. I hope it isn't more testing as in the No Child Left Behind kind of testing. I wouldn't think so, since it has been a dismal failure. I believe, from what I have read that math and science will be more standardized from state to state. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I am wondering. Will an increase in American math and science majors diminish the need for high tech worker visas? It doesn't seem to be our mode of operation to pay our own when we can get another countries math and science majors at half the price. I know that is defeatist but what will be the benefit if the big corporations don't change the way they do business. More highly degree-d unemployed? I do agree with what you said about Happiness. Everyone should want happy kids now and in the future. Happiness is a great thing to possess.

09-12-2010, 08:41 PM	#7
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Except this time, it is the states passing the standards. The government is just passing the buck. (unintended pun)

09-12-2010, 10:38 PM	#10
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Make 'em earn their self esteem. But unfortunately, most kid's source of self esteem is from their parents, so if the parent demands perfection, or the opposite extreme, indifferent, the kid is screwed. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-13-2010, 11:48 AM	#12
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	In "my" school, in "my" year (age 6-7) we do not criticise the children. However, according to the child's ability, mistakes are pointed out. [all names are replaced] If Jim gets his name right at the top of the page, without prompting, he is praised. If Hayley does not use capital letters or full stops, that is pointed out to her. Caitlyn is made aware of every spelling mistake. We run the gamut from children with actual learning disabilities [receiving support from specialists] to children able to read 2-3 years above their age group. The idea is to judge the results according to the child's ability and always try to push them beyond their comfort zone. Every single child has a spelling test every single week. Those with difficulties (ie Jim) get their own words. Every other child gets the standard spellings. And I did mark children with 1/8 or 2/8. It's not just a tick and a cross though, it's explaining what was missing, using the THRASS system, sounding the word out and writing the correct spelling. Same with maths. Awesome Addition for example. We had children on Level 11, and some of those on the top table for Literacy (Caitlyn for example) were still on Level 2. Whereas Jamie - in a special class for Literacy, was on Level 8. I'm not a big fan of tests for littlies. Not official ones, anyway. I am a fan of regular tests as a way of learning. I like that when I try to talk children through problems I can say, "Well you know what 8 + 2 is don't you? So what's another 2?" or "I know you know that word, because you spelled it right last week." This is how I grew up, and therefore I'm biased. Given that it's the way children are taught where I work, the bias is multiplied. But to me it seems to work. Children at the lower end of the scale still work towards acheiving a personal best. The results are not read out in the classroom (although peers compare I admit) so no shame or grading is incurred. And this is a school that teaches discipline. You do NOT talk in class. Or in the corridors. You enter a class silently and sit on the mat. You raise your hand to speak. You replace your chair under the table when you stand up or leave. You are polite to all adults and let them pass in the corridors. And all that jazz. I'm learning with the children this year - I had no idea how big a gulf there was between 6 and 7 I suspect I'm a little more disciplinarian than Miss N, because I got used to the older kids... and Ms Mc last year. I have no doubt they'll all shape up though, they're all decent kids. In "my" school, at least at the level of Year 2, I think a child's happiness depends on their homelife and their classmates, and guidance from the staff to encourage them to learn. It's a wonderful school.

09-13-2010, 06:36 PM	#14
squirell nutkin has a second hand user title Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in a Nut House Posts: 2,017	Yeah, if you "hike at the pace of the slowest hiker" you'll never leave the frigging trailhead. __________________ And now I'm finished posting.

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