Is there free will in heaven?

[SteveDallas]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Well, obviously the Christian heaven is better than the Christian hell. But I find that it seems to be a choice between creepy and painful, rather than bliss and torment.

Are you Christian? Or not?

If you are, why does the idea of eternity in perfect communion with a perfect God sound creepy?

If you aren't, why do you care?

(I'm assuming, of course, that we're discussing Heaven in terms of philosophical/theological aspects... not in the sense of "In Heaven you get to sleep till noon, hang out at a Maxim photo shoot in the afternoon, and party with the models at night." But maybe I'm wrong!)

[Happy Monkey]

I'm not. But a lot of people are, which is why I find it interesting.

I have a few problems with the concept of heaven and hell. First is the implied lack of free will. Second is the feeling of selfishness I get. A person in heaven is very likely to have known and loved at least one person who ended up in hell. How could the person in heaven be happy while that is true? Do you just stop caring? Do you become self-righteous, and agree that they deserve it? It is things like that that creep me out.

[Elspode]

I'm gonna guess that, no, there will be no free will in Christian Heaven, because there isn't any on Earth according to their tenets, so why would it be any different up there?

Yeah, yeah...I know...we have the free will to choose Jesus or reject him, but I have a hard time viewing two choices to constitute free will.

[elSicomoro]

There better be plenty of Guinness on tap up there...that's all I have to say.

[lumberjim]

Isn't there a lot of "praising the Lord" and Halleluahing and such going on up in the fluffy cloud, harps music, cherubs flyin around your head Heaven? Do you think that everyone up in heaven wants to do that all day? doesn;t sound like free will to me.

The idea of "christian Heaven" as portrayed on tv, Sunday School, and in some really freaky little hands out flyers I've seen, with the pearly gates, and the meeting god and the angels is preposterous. I am genuinely surprised when I run into a grown adult who appears to believe that if you live a good life, you will be judged by "the maker" and rewarded with eternal bliss. how stupid do you have to be? how eager to believe?

First of all, bliss is a comparative state. If you were perpetually blissed, you wouldn;t be able to tell, would you? nothing bad to compare it to. Second, how egocentric of us to think that 1 God can know all individuals well enough to sentence them to eternal bliss or damnation. If there is a single sentient god ( a possibility that I find unlikey, but cannot rule out) what makes us think that he gives a rats ass about a aingle person? Do they invision a staff of angles that work for him/her? pah! really. This longing for immortality in heaven is naught but a philosophical manifestation of a genetically installed drive. We are wired to perpetuate ourselves thru reproduction. The individuals that weren't have died out, are dying out, will die out. So our overacheiving brains decide that if our body is to reproduce and live on in our children, then our minds, which we somehow concieive of as being seperate from our bodies, must also live on, but in a really trippy far out kind of way. in heaven.....or in helll horseshit! Immortality is in your pants!



Personally, I find soul recycling much easier to swallow.

edited to ad: immortality is in your pants.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by lumberjim
Isn't there a lot of "praising the Lord" and Halleluahing and such going on up in the fluffy cloud, harps music, cherubs flyin around your head Heaven? Do you think that everyone up in heaven wants to do that all day? doesn;t sound like free will to me

The idea of "christian Heaven" as portrayed on tv, Sunday School, and in some really freaky little hands out flyers I've seen, with the pearly gates, and the meeting god and the angels is preposterous. I am genuinely surprised when I run into a grown adult who appears to believe that if you live a good life, you will be judged by "the maker" and rewarded with eternal bliss. how stupid do you have to be? how eager to believe?.

Maybe. The bible says that there are angels in heaven, and you get to hang out with god and jesus, but it doesn't get real specific, AFAIK. Those who would research, please post refs.

Why is it so hard to believe that if you are a good person, you get a reward at the end? Every major religion/belief system has a "goodie" if you follow the tenets. Nirvana, reincarnation to the next highest form, heaven, Valhalla, hanging out with Allah, whatever. That in mind, how can you say that the 98% of people on this earth that believe something good comes to those who follow the beliefs of their system are stupid? That's an awfully big brush to paint with, Jimbo.

First of all, bliss is a comparative state. If you were perpetually blissed, you wouldn;t be able to tell, would you? nothing bad to compare it to.

Of course there is. You compare it to what it was like before you reached this (evolved or reward) state. It is better. If you lived through suffering and pain, and now are pain free, that's better. It can be considered blissful.

Second, how egocentric of us to think that 1 God can know all individuals well enough to sentence them to eternal bliss or damnation. If there is a single sentient god ( a possibility that I find unlikey, but cannot rule out) what makes us think that he gives a rats ass about a aingle person? Do they invision a staff of angles that work for him/her? pah! really.

==back to Christian tenets now==

The bible tells us that God knows us from the moment we are conceived, that he DOES know each and every one of us, that he has a plan for each and every one of us, and that he wants to be a part of each and every one of our lives. Can you conceive of infinite numbers? Think of counting to infinity. God is infinite just in that way. He has always been and always will be. Why are you putting human limitations on God? He is above that. That is why he is God.

This longing for immortality in heaven is naught but a philosophical manifestation of a genetically installed drive. We are wired to perpetuate ourselves thru reproduction. The individuals that weren't have died out, are dying out, will die out. So our overacheiving brains decide that if our body is to reproduce and live on in our children, then our minds, which we somehow concieive of as being seperate from our bodies, must also live on, but in a really trippy far out kind of way. in heaven.....or in helll

horseshit!

Perhaps. We'll find out at the end! I say enjoy the ride while you're here, be excellent to each other, and party on dudes!!

Or...was that George Carlin and Abraham Lincoln?

[OnyxCougar]

This is indigo.
This is indio.

Note to self: be very careful at 12:45am when handtyping tags.

[lumberjim]

Maybe. The bible says that there are angels in heaven....

The bible tells us that God knows us....

and the bible was written by someone who had been there, and would know? did "god" write it? did "jesus" write it? or was it some asshole preists a long time ago who wrote it in a different language .........which has been translated who knows how accurately, abridged, revised, and embelished for centuries. .....just so they could get some control of the populous.

Why is it so hard to believe that if you are a good person, you get a reward at the end? Every major religion/belief system has a "goodie" if you follow the tenets. Nirvana, reincarnation to the next highest form, heaven, Valhalla, hanging out with Allah, whatever. That in mind, how can you say that the 98% of people on this earth that believe something good comes to those who follow the beliefs of their system are stupid? That's an awfully big brush to paint with, Jimbo.

It's not hard to believe.I've seen it before.

[beavis]

Originally posted by sycamore
There better be plenty of Guinness on tap up there...that's all I have to say.

WORD

[Undertoad]

In heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here.
And when we're gone from here
Our friends will be drinking all the beer.

- traditional

[elSicomoro]

Thank you for completely ruining heaven for me, Toad.

[kerosene]

At least now you don't have to try and get there.

[lumberjim]

the aforementioned wacky christian propaganda

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by sycamore
Thank you for completely ruining heaven for me, Toad.

YOU, really don't have to worry about what is or isn't in Heaven.

[jaguar]

Now then, you have the facts. You know what the human race enjoys and what it doesn't enjoy. It has invented a heaven out of its own head, all by itself: guess what it is like! In fifteen hundred eternities you couldn't do it. The ablest mind known to you or me in fifty million aeons couldn't do it. Very well, I will tell you about it.

1. First of all, I recall to your attention the extraordinary fact with which I began. To wit, that the human being, like the immortals, naturally places sexual intercourse far and away above all other joys -- yet he has left it out of his heaven! The very thought of it excites him; opportunity sets him wild; in this state he will risk life, reputation, everything -- even his queer heaven itself -- to make good that opportunity and ride it to the overwhelming climax. From youth to middle age all men and all women prize copulation above all other pleasures combined, yet it is actually as I have said: it is not in their heaven; prayer takes its place.

They prize it thus highly; yet, like all their so-called "boons," it is a poor thing. At its very best and longest the act is brief beyond imagination -- the imagination of an immortal, I mean. In the matter of repetition the man is limited -- oh, quite beyond immortal conception. We who continue the act and its supremest ecstasies unbroken and without withdrawal for centuries, will never be able to understand or adequately pity the awful poverty of these people in that rich gift which, possessed as we possess it, makes all other possessions trivial and not worth the trouble of invoicing.

2. In man's heaven everybody sings! The man who did not sing on earth sings there; the man who could not sing on earth is able to do it there. The universal singing is not casual, not occasional, not relieved by intervals of quiet; it goes on, all day long, and every day, during a stretch of twelve hours. And everybody stays; whereas in the earth the place would be empty in two hours. The singing is of hymns alone. Nay, it is of one hymn alone. The words are always the same, in number they are only about a dozen, there is no rhyme, there is no poetry: "Hosannah, hosannah, hosannah, Lord God of Sabaoth, 'rah! 'rah! 'rah! siss! -- boom! ... a-a-ah!"

3. Meantime, every person is playing on a harp -- those millions and millions! -- whereas not more than twenty in the thousand of them could play an instrument in the earth, or ever wanted to.

Consider the deafening hurricane of sound -- millions and millions of voices screaming at once and millions and millions of harps gritting their teeth at the same time! I ask you: is it hideous, is it odious, is it horrible?

Consider further: it is a praise service; a service of compliment, of flattery, of adulation! Do you ask who it is that is willing to endure this strange compliment, this insane compliment; and who not only endures it, but likes it, enjoys it, requires if, commands it? Hold your breath!

It is God! This race's god, I mean. He sits on his throne, attended by his four and twenty elders and some other dignitaries pertaining to his court, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempestuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction northward, eastward, southward; as quaint and nave a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it.

It is easy to see that the inventor of the heavens did not originate the idea, but copied it from the show-ceremonies of some sorry little sovereign State up in the back settlements of the Orient somewhere.

All sane white people hate noise; yet they have tranquilly accepted this kind of heaven -- without thinking, without reflection, without examination -- and they actually want to go to it! Profoundly devout old gray-headed men put in a large part of their time dreaming of the happy day when they will lay down the cares of this life and enter into the joys of that place. Yet you can see how unreal it is to them, and how little it takes a grip upon them as being fact, for they make no practical preparation for the great change: you never see one of them with a harp, you never hear one of them sing.

As you have seen, that singular show is a service of praise: praise by hymn, praise by prostration. It takes the place of "church." Now then, in the earth these people cannot stand much church -- an hour and a quarter is the limit, and they draw the line at once a week. That is to say, Sunday. One day in seven; and even then they do not look forward to it with longing. And so -- consider what their heaven provides for them: "church" that lasts forever, and a Sabbath that has no end! They quickly weary of this brief hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one; they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they are going to enjoy it -- with all their simple hearts they think they think they are going to be happy in it!

It is because they do not think at all; they only think they think. Whereas they can't think; not two human beings in ten thousand have anything to think with. And as to imagination -- oh, well, look at their heaven! They accept it, they approve it, they admire it. That gives you their intellectual measure.

4. The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they have to be "brothers"; they have to mix together, pray together, harp together, Hosannah together -- whites, niggers, Jews, everybody -- there's no distinction. Here in the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were only there he would take all the populace to his heart, and hug, and hug, and hug!

He is a marvel -- man is! I would I knew who invented him.

5. Every man in the earth possesses some share of intellect, large or small; and be it large or be it small he takes pride in it. Also his heart swells at mention of the names of the majestic intellectual chiefs of his race, and he loves the tale of their splendid achievements. For he is of their blood, and in honoring themselves they have honored him. Lo, what the mind of man can do! he cries, and calls the roll of the illustrious of all ages; and points to the imperishable literatures they have given to the world, and the mechanical wonders they have invented, and the glories wherewith they have clothed science and the arts; and to them he uncovers as to kings, and gives to them the profoundest homage, and the sincerest, his exultant heart can furnish -- thus exalting intellect above all things else in the world, and enthroning it there under the arching skies in a supremacy unapproachable. And then he contrived a heaven that hasn't a rag of intellectuality in it anywhere!

Is it odd, is it curious, is it puzzling? It is exactly as I have said, incredible as it may sound. This sincere adorer of intellect and prodigal rewarder of its mighty services here in the earth has invented a religion and a heaven which pay no compliments to intellect, offer it no distinctions, fling it no largess: in fact, never even mention it.

By this time you will have noticed that the human being's heaven has been thought out and constructed upon an absolute definite plan; and that this plan is, that it shall contain, in labored detail, each and every imaginable thing that is repulsive to a man, and not a single thing he likes!

- Mark Twain, Letters From Earth