The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Philosophy

Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing

View Poll Results: A human being is...
...bio-automation, organic machinery. 1 14.29%
...sumthin’ more than bio-automation, not only organic machinery. 6 85.71%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2019, 10:00 AM   #61
lumberjim
I can hear my ears
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
New bag. Wedding Cake. Not bad, but it is like a sleeping pill with a 3 hour delay. Zzzzzzz
__________________
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
Embrace this moment, remember
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan
lumberjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 04:24 PM   #62
sexobon
I love it when a plan comes together.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumberjim View Post
… Have fun with it.
Yeahbut, the infinite number of other universes in other timelines and dimensions may not recognize this universe as an intrinsic person within the totality of existence. In which case, it would have to be bestowed.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 04:26 PM   #63
lumberjim
I can hear my ears
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
Now you're bringing quantum theory into this?

One thing at a time, sir.
__________________
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
Embrace this moment, remember
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan
lumberjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 04:32 PM   #64
sexobon
I love it when a plan comes together.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,793
I was just having fun!

What a grouch.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 04:43 PM   #65
lumberjim
I can hear my ears
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
still a person
__________________
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
Embrace this moment, remember
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan
lumberjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 08:13 PM   #66
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by lumberjim View Post
still a person
Yes, you are.

Now, exactly what it is that makes you a person rather than a bio-robot?

We kinda touched on those qualities or characteristics up-thread, self-awareness mebbe bein’ chief among them.

What is self-awareness? A loop? A mirror?
__________________
like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 09:32 PM   #67
lumberjim
I can hear my ears
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
You should watch some Krishnamurti on you tube. He goes deep into questions like that. Deeeep.
__________________
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
Embrace this moment, remember
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

Last edited by lumberjim; 10-10-2019 at 09:38 PM.
lumberjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 09:36 PM   #68
lumberjim
I can hear my ears
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
https://youtu.be/kswDO60A3h8
__________________
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
Embrace this moment, remember
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan
lumberjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 01:58 AM   #69
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
For all intents and purposes, we have what may as well be considered free will. Within the boundaries of what our perception of the nature of reality and consciousness is, we're completely free to make whatever choices the boundaries of our imagination can think of. It's like bowling in a bumper lane, except we're literally not able to see outside the lane and we think what's inside that narrow little strip is a limitless field of choices that we have 100% control over. Hubris and arrogance. We're!! Number!! One!!

It's a cheap, easy joke to say "herp derp this guy thinks we don't have free will." You're joking, I hope.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 06:12 AM   #70
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint View Post
...we're completely free to make whatever choices the boundaries of our imagination can think of.
Unless they reboot the game.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 09:22 AM   #71
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
Flint

I'm a big proponent for our having (being) free wills (specifically: agent causation [which is to say, I stand in opposition to determinism]).

What I'm wonderin': How do you square "We’re running a program written in the code of unfolding proteins." with "we're completely free to make whatever choices the boundaries of our imagination can think of."

The two notions seem at odds to me.
__________________
like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 09:51 AM   #72
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
I like the bumper lanes analogy

I can only give personal experience

It's like, I'm pretty antisocial; raised as an only child with no father, and pretty neurotic, introversion is my gig. I avoid parties, because all too often, I'm the guy who doesn't know what to do there, and then I just make everyone else uncomfortable.

But as a human, I am built to be social, and cannot live without other people.

In my worst situation, jobless, without a relationship, stuck in a shithole, I would wind up not seeing any human being in a week. And then, when I would finally interact with someone, like a bank teller, I would strike up a five minute conversation, if it was possible.

Then I would look back at it, and think, who the hell was that? Because that's not me. I don't just talk to a teller for five minutes. I've never done that in my life. But I couldn't help it one bit.

So for me, bumper lanes are: built by Darwin to be social, built by early conditioning to be antisocial.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 11:06 AM   #73
lumberjim
I can hear my ears
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
You're just exerting normalizing pressure on yourself when you label yourself Introvert or Whatever ist.

Categorizing ourselves separates us from each other. We think it gives us the opposite. Under all of it, though, we all bleed red blood.
__________________
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
Embrace this moment, remember
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan
lumberjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 01:25 AM   #74
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
What I'm wonderin': How do you square "We’re running a program written in the code of unfolding proteins." with "we're completely free to make whatever choices the boundaries of our imagination can think of."

The two notions seem at odds to me.
They're not. And the reason is, in a nutshell, because things are very, very complicated. A hundred thousand million billion times more complicated than we will ever figure out, given our best tools and best methods of investigation. We're not designed to understand it, and we never will. The Grand Design that creates us and gives us life, whether you call it God, whether you call it science, it's way, way, way too complicated for us to get even a mere inkling of understanding what's actually going on. And no matter how many gene sequences and neurochemical pathways we follow the trail of, we are chasing an answer that is not obtainable by us.

We're not designed to know the answer, but one thing I deeply believe is that just because we are ignorant of something doesn't mean that it's magic.

We can study of bacteria and say that it consumes nutrients because that's what it's programmed to do, of course it doesn't have self-awareness, it's just performing a robotic series of actions. That seems obvious to us. Ourselves, however look at how many different, amazing, creative choices we can make, of course there's no way that could just be a range of choices we're designed to do, right? Because it "feels" like we're in control, and we have all this consciousness and fancy cognitive ability, never mind that we don't actually understand how any of it works. So, since we don't understand it-- of course it must be magic! Only Magic and Supernatural Voodoo could animate us to do all the wonderful, amazing things we do. Since we don't understand *the entire process from beginning to end* it has to be magic? That argument just doesn't hold water for me.

Everything is explainable. Everything happens for a reason. Including every single thing that it's possible for a human being to do in their entire lifetime. That's the way the universe works. The idea that we are special and exempt from the laws of the universe is literally ludicrous to me. And the argument for "free will" is that it "feels" like we have it? Ha ha ha!! That's a paper that we'd get an "F" on, in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio

Last edited by Flint; 10-12-2019 at 02:25 AM.
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 06:50 AM   #75
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
From an evolutionary standpoint, the trait of "free will" is useful only as a variable to find a more efficient/successful path when adverse circumstances make it necessary. A creature with free will is never going to survive as well as one with instincts adapted to its environment--it will make the wrong choice more often than the creature that has evolved a set of deterministic behaviors.

You can't get rid of free will entirely, because then you lose the ability to adapt if the environment suddenly shifts. But it's a losing bet, in the short term. Free will is the "random mutation" of behavioral evolution, that's all.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.