Pedophilia Irish Style - Page 2

Cloud · 03-25-2010, 10:42 PM

I think as a social process it's a good thing, in the long run, for these things to come to light, be talked about, and work their way through the legal process. When people are too afraid to talk about things like this, abuse occurs.

I also think about the perpetrators of these crimes. I wonder if these men, and it's not just priests; there are many lay orders who are involved in teaching, recognized that something was not right in themselves, and approached the church because of this. Maybe they thought that with enough prayer and with the guidance of their god they could make up for it somehow, or be cured.

I could talk about the catholic church, who I think didn't conspire so much as ignore, relying on prayer and secrecy to make the problem go away. I could talk about the victims, some of whom endured horrific abuse; and some of whom are probably milking the litigation system for money and blaming everyone else other than themselves for their problems. But things are changing now.

No one really talked about this stuff, until the 70s in the US when the first lawsuits were being brought. Americans should be proud of this really; that people had the courage to speak up, be forthright and not to tolerate the abuse of authority. Europe has been behind us in all this. But I tell you, with the rest of the world catching up now, the catholic church is going to have a tough row. It may endure, but it will take a long time--centuries perhaps--for it to overcome this stigma.

Griff · 03-27-2010, 12:03 PM

Very thoughtful Cloud. Meanwhile someone is handing Nero his fiddle...

tw · 03-27-2010, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

No one really talked about this stuff, until the 70s in the US when the first lawsuits were being brought.

Back then was another popular expression. "You cannot trust anyone over 30."

I guess that translated today into "You cannot trust anyone over 70" which may be the average age of today's priests.

Cloud · 03-27-2010, 09:12 PM

it's sad, truly. I think about this a lot, since I deal with this on a daily basis. My law firm represents a diocese (not the priests/alleged perpetrators).

Sundae · 03-28-2010, 07:58 AM

I was brought up Catholic, my parents and sister are still practicing Catholics and my Godfather is a priest.

None of the above condone paedophilia in any way, shape or form.
They are still Catholic because they believe what has happened is against the teaching of the Bible, against what Jesus stood for and against what the Catholic church really stands for.

They are frustrated and confused by the actions of corrupt members of the clergy, but still hold true to their own personal ideals, which they have formed through their own life experiences.

I'm not Catholic because I am an atheist. Simple.
But I come from a background where I have interacted with many, many Catholics.
The majority will be exactly like my family - distressed and disgusted by what has happened, but still believing that this is human sin, in the one holy and apostolic church, that Jesus is still the way the truth and the light and no-one can come to the Father except through him.

There are plenty of corrupt politicians - liars, homophobes who sleep with rent boys, family values men who get their secretaries pregnant, bribe takers etc etc etc. It doesn't kill the party they belong to.

I'm not condoning what has happened. I think the closeted world of the Catholic priesthood, especially the celibacy law is long outdated (it was introduced for the simple human mercenary reason of inheritance). I'm just trying to put the viewpoint of the good Catholics I know, and why they went to Mass today.

DanaC · 03-28-2010, 08:06 AM

It's also worth pointing out that there are large numbers of committed, caring, faithful priests who aren't abusng their position of trust in this way.

jinx · 03-28-2010, 12:05 PM

There are no good works that mitigate raping kids.
If raping kids isn't a deal breaker for you - then what the hell is?

DanaC · 03-28-2010, 12:36 PM

A 'deal breaker'? For whom? Catholics don't see this as a problem with Catholicism, they see it as a failure of management, and individual sin.

Sundae · 03-28-2010, 12:44 PM

If you have faith and have never come into contact with a bad priest, then of course it's not a deal breaker.
Football players are often in court for speeding, assault, sexual misconduct. I'm sure their managers and coaches cover up an awful lot. Does that mean people stop watching football? No of course not.

I'm not defending the Catholic church here. But I think to damn all Catholics is a little disingenuous.

tw · 03-28-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

They are still Catholic because they believe what has happened is against the teaching of the Bible, against what Jesus stood for and against what the Catholic church really stands for. ...

I'm just trying to put the viewpoint of the good Catholics I know, and why they went to Mass today.

First, one does not go to a church to worship the institution. A religious institution forgets that when so corrupt. One goes to church to relate to their god. The church is only a consultant. An intermediary. Nothing more. Their job is to service their clients (religiously - not sexually) in a client’s one to one relationship between that man and that god. Nothing more.

A relationship to god is unchanged no matter how corrupt the consultants are.

Catholic church is nothing more than a company of consultants. They can be fired or ignored. Nothing says you must do what consultants order. Even people who are excommunicated can still enter a church. What are they going to do? Call the police? The relationship is one to one; man to god.

Second, I have heard (and not followed up on) reports that Catholic priests in the Ukraine do get married.

Third, Pope Benedict is one who literally condoned all this when, as a bishop, he routinely refused to confront the problem when it was his job to do so. Corruption is that rampant at the highest levels. He spent more time covering up crimes rather than stopping them. His actions are so similar to top GM management that only bankruptcy could cause changea. There is no President or Board of Directors to force the church to change.

Nobody should be in that church to worship the church – even though corrupt church officers do not want to learn that.

Fourth, how many Catholics believe the Pope is infallible? No. Then those consults were lying again. More honest Catholics should demand the consultants stop lying. That will not happen. Ignore the consultants even if they excommunicate the worshipper. He is only there for the relationship between man and god.

jinx · 03-28-2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

A 'deal breaker'? For whom? Catholics don't see this as a problem with Catholicism, they see it as a failure of management, and individual sin.

For whom? Are you serious? It's not a problem with catholicism, just management? Management isn;t catholic? Catholics aren't bankrolling this whole child-raping operation they call a church, and then turning a blind eye?

Well, if you're right Dana, that right there is a huge reason why this problem is so pervasive. But yeah, if the coffee is good, and you're friends are there... Yuk.

SG, this has nothing to do with politicians or football players, I don't know where you come up with this shit.

TheMercenary · 03-28-2010, 06:22 PM

I really think this whole think could bring down the Catholic church as we know it, esp if there is continual proof of the current Pope's ignoring the facts about the abuse. We grew up Catholic and left the church long ago for many reasons. Sad state of affairs.

DanaC · 03-28-2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

For whom? Are you serious? It's not a problem with catholicism, just management? Management isn;t catholic? Catholics aren't bankrolling this whole child-raping operation they call a church, and then turning a blind eye?

Well, if you're right Dana, that right there is a huge reason why this problem is so pervasive. But yeah, if the coffee is good, and you're friends are there... Yuk.

SG, this has nothing to do with politicians or football players, I don't know where you come up with this shit.

My point is that for most Catholics, this has precious little to do with cups of tea and a friend network, but that this is (as Sundae mentioned) the one true apostolic church. If you believe that. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church (Peter's See) is the direct descendant of the apostles faith, then problems and scandals are not attached to Catholicism itself. These are manmade problems.

I know catholics who are grieving over this. It doesn't stop them wanting to be catholic. It makes them want the people who currently administrate the Church, and the priests who are guilty (along with those who are complicit) to give answers and clean up their act. But that's all about people. The Church isn't about people. It's two thousand years of history, tradition and divine sanction.

jinx · 03-28-2010, 06:43 PM

None of that makes it ok in my book. But just the fact that I think there is no excuse, doesn't stop people from making them.

TheMercenary · 03-28-2010, 06:44 PM

All religion is about "people".

03-25-2010, 10:42 PM	#16
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	I think as a social process it's a good thing, in the long run, for these things to come to light, be talked about, and work their way through the legal process. When people are too afraid to talk about things like this, abuse occurs. I also think about the perpetrators of these crimes. I wonder if these men, and it's not just priests; there are many lay orders who are involved in teaching, recognized that something was not right in themselves, and approached the church because of this. Maybe they thought that with enough prayer and with the guidance of their god they could make up for it somehow, or be cured. I could talk about the catholic church, who I think didn't conspire so much as ignore, relying on prayer and secrecy to make the problem go away. I could talk about the victims, some of whom endured horrific abuse; and some of whom are probably milking the litigation system for money and blaming everyone else other than themselves for their problems. But things are changing now. No one really talked about this stuff, until the 70s in the US when the first lawsuits were being brought. Americans should be proud of this really; that people had the courage to speak up, be forthright and not to tolerate the abuse of authority. Europe has been behind us in all this. But I tell you, with the rest of the world catching up now, the catholic church is going to have a tough row. It may endure, but it will take a long time--centuries perhaps--for it to overcome this stigma. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

03-27-2010, 12:03 PM	#17
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Very thoughtful Cloud. Meanwhile someone is handing Nero his fiddle... __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

03-27-2010, 09:12 PM	#19
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	it's sad, truly. I think about this a lot, since I deal with this on a daily basis. My law firm represents a diocese (not the priests/alleged perpetrators). __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

03-28-2010, 07:58 AM	#20
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	I was brought up Catholic, my parents and sister are still practicing Catholics and my Godfather is a priest. None of the above condone paedophilia in any way, shape or form. They are still Catholic because they believe what has happened is against the teaching of the Bible, against what Jesus stood for and against what the Catholic church really stands for. They are frustrated and confused by the actions of corrupt members of the clergy, but still hold true to their own personal ideals, which they have formed through their own life experiences. I'm not Catholic because I am an atheist. Simple. But I come from a background where I have interacted with many, many Catholics. The majority will be exactly like my family - distressed and disgusted by what has happened, but still believing that this is human sin, in the one holy and apostolic church, that Jesus is still the way the truth and the light and no-one can come to the Father except through him. There are plenty of corrupt politicians - liars, homophobes who sleep with rent boys, family values men who get their secretaries pregnant, bribe takers etc etc etc. It doesn't kill the party they belong to. I'm not condoning what has happened. I think the closeted world of the Catholic priesthood, especially the celibacy law is long outdated (it was introduced for the simple human mercenary reason of inheritance). I'm just trying to put the viewpoint of the good Catholics I know, and why they went to Mass today. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

03-28-2010, 12:05 PM	#22
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	There are no good works that mitigate raping kids. If raping kids isn't a deal breaker for you - then what the hell is? __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

03-28-2010, 12:44 PM	#24
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	If you have faith and have never come into contact with a bad priest, then of course it's not a deal breaker. Football players are often in court for speeding, assault, sexual misconduct. I'm sure their managers and coaches cover up an awful lot. Does that mean people stop watching football? No of course not. I'm not defending the Catholic church here. But I think to damn all Catholics is a little disingenuous. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

03-28-2010, 06:22 PM	#27
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	I really think this whole think could bring down the Catholic church as we know it, esp if there is continual proof of the current Pope's ignoring the facts about the abuse. We grew up Catholic and left the church long ago for many reasons. Sad state of affairs.

03-28-2010, 06:43 PM	#29
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	None of that makes it ok in my book. But just the fact that I think there is no excuse, doesn't stop people from making them. __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

03-28-2010, 06:44 PM	#30
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	All religion is about "people".

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode