What's upsetting you today?

[DanaC]

Yeah...sounds a little like I was at that age too. I was fortunate in that whilst J was as screwed up as I was when we met at 18 he grew up into a lovely man.

Tell you what though: thinking back to the kind of all in mentality I had at that time, the sudden cessation of welfare would not have forced me out of there. In your daughter's situation, at that age I'd have followed the guy down into penury and instability.

I'd be very cautious of intervening in any way with their domestic setup, regardless of how anonymous it is.

[orthodoc]

That's good advice. Trying to make her feel supported enough that she wouldn't do something like this has totally failed; I don't want to drive her farther away. Just have to step way, way back and let events unfold. Hard to lose a daughter. And if she's pregnant ... I can't bear to think what will happen to that child. I have already buried one granddaughter. What would be even worse would be to watch a grandchild growing up in an untenable situation.

[BigV]

...

friend. You're not losing a daughter, you're gaining an adult. Well, what you're watching from your distance is an adult in the making. Too soon to find out if this particular round of life lessons will have a lasting positive effect, sometimes a makeup exam is in order, sometimes more than one. But this is an experience lesson, not a tell lesson, not a show lesson. You have done your best, you must know that. You have more work to do, and it will be hard. Hard to watch your kids suffer the slings and arrows etc, etc. But that's what sticks, that's what leaves a mark to remind them...well, that didn't work out so well last time, I think I'll xyz instead.

on top of which, you can't change it for the better at this late date anyhow. I suffer along with you though, as all your friends who also parents suffer. Pass the wine, willya?

eta: A couple thoughts I've posted before. first, you've done your best, now you get to watch your work take effect:

OC:

I have been bowling a number of times in my life. Have you ever been bowling? You go to a special place where the supplies and the equipment and the professionals are all gathered together to do it. You usually go with other people. You pay your money and then walk past racks and racks of mostly similar round-y things with holes in them, and for the rookies, picking out "the one" can be troublesome.

Eventually, you pick a ball that you like, it fits your hand, you can carry it easily, maybe you like how it looks, whatever. Finally, it's your turn to bowl. You approach the ball rack, you prepare your hand over that little blower, you carefully pick up your ball and find your best starting position. You cradle the ball near your chest and imagine the approach, the extension, the backswing, the whole roll. You're in control of that ball. The ball can do nothing without you, and you have a plan. You start your move and things begin to happen faster and more variables come into play. Is the floor slippery? Will I stop before the foul line? Can I hang on to the ball at the end of my backswing? Should I go before the guy in the other lane or is he waiting for me? Don't forget to aim for the pocket behind the 1-pin. Be smoooooth. Criminee! RELEASE!

Now the ball is rocketing toward the pins, it's out of your hands. But think about what almost always happens on the way down the lane. The contortions and gyrations of "body english" make NO difference to the ball or the pins, yet we're helpless to resist the urge to twist and lean and talk--to the ball!! But the ball is gone.

KEEEERRRAAASSH!!!

**freeze**

OC, you sound like a loving, diligent, articulate, involved, caring parent. You will certainly suffer for it, too. I can't imagine anything to add to what you've described that *might* improve the situation, including walking away from justifiable homicide (j/k good for you, and him).

When you have an exclusive choice to be the parent OR the friend, choose parent, like you did.

**thaw**

Was it a strike? A spare? A gutterball? A foul? Regardless, your body english only made you feel better, but didn't change the course of the ball.

Our children are like that too. We first get them helpless and bald, and have the most perfect plans for them. Strike! We carefully approach and swing and release--and the rest is up to them. Thankfully, the analogy breaks down a little here. You've certainly done your part to affect your son's trajectory and now it's largely up to him. I know what I'm talking about I have an 18 year old stepson at home right now myself. It's out of my hands. But your son, and mine, can still hear our voices. Continue to be reasonable (no one on one, that's not out of line) and more importantly, consistent.

But the kicker is this: find a way, some way, to learn HIS ideas and include them in the dialogue. This is imperative. I'm afraid I don't have any special clues or dumb analogies to illustrate this, but it is really important. With it, you can hope that your input can have an effect. Without it, it's all just body english.

second, about the three kinds of lessons:

As a parent, some lessons I *tell* to my son. Some lessons I *show* him. Some lessons I leave for him to discover on his own. Of the three, the third one is the most potent teaching method. It's not always appropriate. "Don't play in the street" is a tell lesson--the stakes are too high to permit an error. How to ride a skateboard is a show lesson--at least at the beginning--he's way better than me now. How to get along with his peers is mostly a (series of) self discovery lessons.

The three methods are not mutually exclusive, of course. And parental temperament plays a big factor in this kind of social dynamic. I prefer the self discovery angle, but not exclusively. Others here have posted their preference for a much more authoritarian stance, mercy and Radar are a couple of examples that come to mind.

I see the parents taking this third track. They may also be doing (or have done) the others too. Where's the harm? What are the stakes, the cost of failure? Pretty low in my estimate. That's a good candidate for learning on their own.

[orthodoc]

I know this is a 'discovery' type lesson; she's chosen that. The stakes and cost of failure are high, though. She's changed the odds of being able to support herself independently in a career she loves from being generally in her favor to being very much against her. She could be that rare exception but most of us aren't. She's also put herself in the position of not being able to walk away from a bad relationship and know she can support herself. And, once children are involved, her chance of crafting a life that includes all the elements important to her virtually disappears when the father is an immature asshat who indulges his imaginary 'PTSD' and 'nerves' at the slightest excuse.

But these are her choices. You don't get do-overs in the big stuff; she's permanently trashing her career options in that industry. Watching that happen, watching her set a match to her own dreams, is hard. Watching the asshat manipulate her for his own narcissistic benefit is hard. But watching is all I can do right now.

[DanaC]

It is also possible that the arrival of a baby will be a catalyst for growing up. For either of them. He may pull his socks up whne he's faced with the responsibility of fatherhood. She may lose patience with his lack of maturity and responsiblity when she is a mother.

And she has a supportive family who would be there for her should she choose to walk away from the guy. Not a wealthy family who will sort her out totally, but help and kindness and small assistance.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

mtp, did you work something out about your rent yet?

My parents are going to pay. It sucks to owe them, but if you don't have a choice, well you just don't have a choice. I may end up borrowing from my brother or nanny because my parents are far from well off themselves, but hopefully not. Speaking of my nan....I'm gonna call her.

[Trilby]

That's a relief, mtp.

I''m glad you're getting some help.

[Nirvana]

Oh O This is my niece's story / life detour. So sorry you are directly along for the ride. She got her head out of her ass and was only married less days than Kim Kardashian but she has a baby now and maybe life experience that has made her smarter.
This has to hurt you like heck!

MTP oh crap

Here is my whine >first cow calved >twins born dead

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Oh O This is my niece's story / life detour. So sorry you are directly along for the ride. She got her head out of her ass and was only married less days than Kim Kardashian but she has a baby now and maybe life experience that has made her smarter.
This has to hurt you like heck!

MTP oh crap

Here is my whine >first cow calved >twins born dead

Aw, poor cows. I'm sorry that that happened, death is never easy to deal with even if it is "just" a cow.

[orthodoc]

Sorry to hear that, Nirvana. How sad, and a sobering start to the season ... here's hoping all goes well from here on in.

Thanks for the hug. Yes, it's going to take some painful life experience. Just hope innocent children don't get hurt as well.

mtp glad you have family to offer support. Hope things turn around for you.

[Trilby]

i'm so sorry Nirvana. how awful & sad.

[BigV]

Sorry to hear your bad news Nirvana.

[footfootfoot]

I wonder if a new thread called "What's upsetting you but isn't so terrible that it will really bring everyone else down?" is in order?

[DanaC]

Oh 'vana, how sad.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

I wonder if a new thread called "What's upsetting you but isn't so terrible that it will really bring everyone else down?" is in order?

I think that's pretty much covered by the 'what's mildly irritating you today' thread.