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Old 08-30-2018, 01:56 PM   #31
DanaC
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Was going to post this in the videos thread then remembered there was a thread about basic income :P Zombie thread ftw!

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Old 08-30-2018, 03:03 PM   #32
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If poverty makes people less intelligent, and if it is the main factor involved in IQ,

...then it follows that rich people are the smartest people in our society.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum!

Which is a phrase I understand, because I make the big bucks.
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Old 08-30-2018, 03:26 PM   #33
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You fucking ppl, w/your jobs and your IQs and your paychecks, and your Dan Fogelberg records...
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Old 08-30-2018, 04:08 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
If poverty makes people less intelligent, and if it is the main factor involved in IQ,

...then it follows that rich people are the smartest people in our society.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum!

Which is a phrase I understand, because I make the big bucks.
I don't think anybody is arguing that it is the main factor in IQ. I think he was saying that poverty acts as a dampener of IQ - as do many other things potentially.

It's not that revolutionary a thought really - it's not that different to Lazlo's hierarchy of needs.

there are lots of different aspects of poverty that can just close down your thinking to the immediate need.
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Old 08-30-2018, 04:37 PM   #35
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There's always going to be some percentage of a population that are just shitty people--poor socialization, a deeply entrenched sense of entitlement, and a fundamental inability to delay gratification for their own benefit, let alone the collective benefit. I know people like this, and the ones I know are not like that because they're poor; quite often they have a decent middle-class life thanks to family handouts in the form of cash, employment in the family business, living with family while they're "getting back on their feet," etc. I have a 46-year-old relative right now who I am working to get into subsidized housing because he's worn through the patience of his last willing relative-roommate. He's on disability because he needs a lung transplant because he loudly and adamantly refuses to quit smoking. He made that decision long before he was poor. He's had jobs, but he always quits because he doesn't like them. He's had apartments, but he gets kicked out because he damages the property through neglect and generally destructive personal habits. He's just a shitty person who has been given a thousand opportunities and squandered every last one.

Here's what happens when shitty people get a baseline of money that enables them to live next door to you: the price of your housing goes up. And you are glad, because it means they can't afford to live next to you anymore.

On the other hand, I am wholeheartedly in favor of raising the minimum wage. Working 40 hours a week should enable you to eat and live in relative security.
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Old 08-30-2018, 04:53 PM   #36
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Maslow's hierarchy has the same problem: only rich people can become self-actualized. Jordan Peterson (of course) on Maslow (start at 1:05):



"It's not self-evident. Like, I don't accept Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I don't think it's *necessarily* more difficult for people who are poor to self-actualize. Sorry. I don't buy that. Because think about what that would mean. That would mean that the rich are morally superior. That's what that means! Because they have all the opportunities to self-actualize! So obviously, if the material conditions are the prerequisite for self-actualization, then the rich are morally superior to the poor... is that really an argument we want to make?

In fact, I don't think that's even vaguely reasonable... because one of the things that helps build character is privation."
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Old 08-30-2018, 07:50 PM   #37
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Privation doesn't necessarily build character, privation followed by success can aid in better appreciation of that success and empathy for those still in privation.


Or it can lead to a lack of empathy, with the thought that "If I can do it, so could they".


Unrelenting privation can lead to a purely cynical outlook.
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Old 08-31-2018, 07:36 AM   #38
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The TED talk guy's point centers around one study, which followed Indian farmers who are temporarily rich after harvest and then temporarily poor after it's been six months after the harvest. The study claims 13 fewer IQ points when they are poor.

My friends, I include me in this, we need to stop basing anything serious off one study. I know I have made this mistake a thousand times. It's just one study. It's one conclusion. It could be wrong. It's certainly no basis to change all of society. People applying their own pet theories to all of society is how millions of people were killed in the 20th century.

I have not sought out the definitions of "rich" and "poor" in this case. But the study brings on a lot of questions. If this is true, what is it with these farmers -- are they are unable to comprehend the cyclical nature of their situation, even as it teaches them the same lesson every damn year? I realize they don't have Vanguard Funds or even secured savings accounts; but can they not buy durable goods when they're rich, that will still be around when they're poor? Hence making them middle class year-round?
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:17 PM   #39
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Three cheers for the muddled class.
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Old 09-01-2018, 05:41 AM   #40
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No he didn't. He also based it on analysis of the records from the Canadian experiment tracking outcomes on health and well being, employment etc before, during and after the experiment
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Old 09-01-2018, 08:50 AM   #41
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I missed that, but: how many conclusions are we going to draw around a tiny (3000 families), tightly knit, non-diverse (Ukrainian), proud (some people refused the assistance), prairie (typically high work ethic), remote (nearest city is 3.5 hours away) population that knew this was experimental and the checks would eventually stop coming? (Wikipedia page on Mincome experiment)

I don't question the idea that the poor people's situation is modestly temporarily improved. Surely it is (although I'm still not buying that it bumps your IQ by a standard deviation). The question is what happens in the long term, not to just the poor but to everybody, not just over five years but over several generations.
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Old 09-01-2018, 10:42 AM   #42
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The question is what happens in the long term, not to just the poor but to everybody, not just over five years but over several generations.
We know from epigenetics that stress upon parents can result in changes to their kids born much later.

For example, if raised in a multi-year N Korean famine, then epigenetics now explains why your kids, born ten years later, will be fatter. The ongoing question is whether that genetic change will also affect your grandchildren.
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Old 09-02-2018, 09:33 AM   #43
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Recent research demonstrated that even air pollution significantly lowers intelligence levels. Ironically not much on math scores and significantly on verbal skills. It is also more harmful longer to the intelligent levels for men than for women.
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