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Old 10-22-2018, 09:15 AM   #16
footfootfoot
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Quote:
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We need more English Nazis.
Exactly. Why should the Germans have all the fun?
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Old 10-24-2018, 06:22 AM   #17
Carruthers
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Prime Minister's Question Time is on the TV as I type.
I happened to wander through the living room a few minutes ago, as a politician, in the highest of high dudgeon, complained about '500 less police officers'.
I am pleased to say that both my father and I (in even higher dudgeon, were that possible) yelled 'FEWER' at the offender.
Standards are slipping these days.
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:43 AM   #18
Glinda
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Originally Posted by footfootfoot View Post
One of my nails on the blackboard things is when people use the word ‘less’ with countable nouns instead of ‘fewer’.

As in, “there’s less people...”.
Y'all may have heard that I've been editing the 25th edition of a major med school book. One would think that the book would be pretty clean, gramatically, after having been reviewed at least 24 times in the previous years.

One would be mistaken.

Of note, "Less people are getting married . . . "
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #19
tw
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Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
Of note, "Less people are getting married . . . "
From Merriam-Webster:
Quote:
The traditional view is that less applies to matters of degree, value, or amount and modifies collective nouns, mass nouns, or nouns denoting an abstract whole while fewer applies to matters of number and modifies plural nouns. Less has been used to modify plural nouns since the days of King Alfred and the usage, though roundly decried, appears to be increasing. Less is more likely than fewer to modify plural nouns when distances, sums of money, and a few fixed phrases are involved. "ess than 100 miles" "an investment of less than $2000" "in 25 words or less" and "as likely as fewer to modify periods of time". "in less (or fewer) than four hours"
Quote:
There's a commonly repeated rule about fewer and less. It goes like this: fewer is used to refer to number among things that are counted, as in "fewer choices" and "fewer problems"; less is used to refer to quantity or amount among things that are measured, as in "less time" and "less effort."
Quote:
Less has been used this way for well over a thousand years—nearly as long as there's been a written English language. But for more than 200 years almost every usage writer and English teacher has declared such use to be wrong. The received rule seems to have originated with the critic Robert Baker, who expressed it not as a law but as a matter of personal preference. Somewhere along the way—it's not clear how—his preference was generalized and elevated to an absolute, inviolable rule.
In short, it just does not matter. Only thing that matters: is what the author is saying understood? IEEE Spectrum once wrote an article about English Nazis. They misspelled almost every word. That article was easily read and understood. English Nazis failed to censor it.

Only an author choses 'less' or 'few' based only in what he wants to say. He (not an English Nazi) chooses what he thinks best states his point.

Spelling and grammar, in rare cases, is necessary so that one who reads does not see something different from one who writes it. So better spelling, grammar, and punctuation is useful. Punctuation often more important than spelling or grammar.

Most every English teacher I had was enthralled with following the rules; could not bother with concepts such as logical thought. Another example of one entranced by what they were ordered to believe and with contempt for what is really relevant.

They were lesser thinkers. Hopefully they will become fewer.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
We need more English Nazis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by footfootfoot View Post
Exactly. Why should the Germans have all the fun?
Wenn du willst, mein fewer.
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:54 AM   #21
Glinda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
In short, it just does not matter.
Oh, it absolutely does matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Only an author choses 'less' or 'few' based only in what he wants to say. He (not an English Nazi) chooses what he thinks best states his point.
And then the author's editors and proofreaders (you know, the "Grammar Nazis" ) correct his shit to remove ambiguity and improve readability. And to protect his moronic ass from rightful criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Spelling and grammar, in rare all cases, is necessary so that one who reads does not see something different from one who writes it. So better spelling, grammar, and punctuation is useful. Punctuation often more important than spelling or grammar.


Also, "Spelling and grammar ARE necessary . . . " Sheesh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Most every English teacher I had was enthralled with following the rules; could not bother with concepts such as logical thought. Another example of one entranced by what they were ordered to believe and with contempt for what is really relevant.

They were lesser thinkers. Hopefully they will become fewer.
Happily, there are plenty of people on the planet with a completely different view. It keeps me in beer and skittles.



Final statement: Words MEAN things. Next time you have something to say about Trump's assenine rhetoric, remind yourself of this. WORDS fucking MEAN THINGS. Neither you nor Trump can hide behind "it doesn't matter."
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:23 AM   #22
xoxoxoBruce
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:31 AM   #23
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
Oh, it absolutely does matter.
Everyone knows exactly what that sign means - even with the missing word "and".

A perfect example of what I posted. Only a lawyer would care. Even the judge would probably throw out any resulting lawsuit. Since only English Nazis care about a missing AND.

Eventually the sign will be changed - for the same reason we also clean water spots from windows. It is nice to do. And it certainly is not necessary.

As an IEEE Spectrum article so accurately demonstrated with every sentence full of errors. It was completely readable; the point glaringly well made.
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Old 10-25-2018, 11:44 AM   #24
monster
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Clearly this sign is Grandmatical. But there's no period.
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
Wenn du willst, mein fewer.
Mein fewer?

Rly? Nthng?

That was funnier than funny. I'm gonna larf and larf, I can't wait for you people, I got things to do, people to see, dope to smoke...

Mein fewer. Ya get it don't ya?

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Old 10-25-2018, 03:20 PM   #26
Gravdigr
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Clearly this sign is Grandmatical. But there's no period.
Clearly an grandmatical era.
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:50 PM   #27
Carruthers
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Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
Mein fewer?

Rly? Nthng?

That was funnier than funny. I'm gonna larf and larf, I can't wait for you people, I got things to do, people to see, dope to smoke...

Mein fewer. Ya get it don't ya?


I laughed, Mr G! Honest, I did!
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:54 PM   #28
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
Mein fewer?

Rly? Nthng?

That was funnier than funny. I'm gonna larf and larf, I can't wait for you people, I got things to do, people to see, dope to smoke...

Mein fewer. Ya get it don't ya?

Mein Lesser?
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:56 PM   #29
xoxoxoBruce
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Sieg heil Mein fewer.
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:57 PM   #30
monster
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I'm sure multiple people chortled. And if not, you can send them to see myself or someone else.
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