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Old 12-10-2013, 08:50 AM   #31
xoxoxoBruce
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ABS does NOT allow you stop faster. ABS allows you brake as hard as possible, while retaining the ability to control(steer) the vehicle around shit.
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:34 PM   #32
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ABS is better than skidding though, isn't it? You can stop faster without ABS if you are very familiar with your brakes and stopping hard just under the threshold of foot pressure that would lock up the wheels and put you into a skid. But most people aren't practiced enough to do that, so ABS gives them the next best thing. And a significant fringe benefit is being able to steer while standing on the brake pedal, pushing it through the floor.

ABS is a great equalizer. Makes average drivers almost as good as top drivers at stopping.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #33
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I fucking love my Hyundai Sonata.

217,000 miles with no problems. Just routine maintenance.

Still looking great apart from the rust and the slight smell of dead deer in the trunk when it rains...

All the electronic shit still works.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:31 PM   #34
lumberjim
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i'd like to see YOUR numbers that say that 4WD makes a car less stable at speed, tw. or is it just an opinion based in feelings?

If you're going down a wet road at 55 mph, and you hit a long puddle...like the kind that form in lanes where the road has rippled from use..... and the tires on the right side begin to hydroplane.... (most 2 wheel drive cars are actually ONE wheel drive)

.... if that drive tire happens to be the one to lose traction suddenly and begins to spin faster because the gas is still being applied and there is no resistance from the surface...

.... the driver senses the loss of traction, maybe corrects course to get away from the puddle, and now that wheel that had been spinning extra fast because it lost traction, GRABS the drier spot, and weee! your car jerks, maybe you get back into the puddle, suddenly slowing, and wooo! you're in a spin.

the car that shunts power to the tracking wheel when it detects spin maintains even acceleration the whole time as they swerve around the dickhead in the honda that just bought it in front of them.

Roll over occurs more in vehicles that have high centers of gravity and narrow tracks. I don't know what that has to do with 4WD. The Wrangler will roll if it's been lifted 6 inches. The worst culprit back in the early 90's was the Bronco II. VERY tall and narrow. The Suzuki got all the press, but the Bronc was worse. I put 1.5 inch spacers (3" wider track) on my commander and a 2.5" lift kit. It's a 5200 lb vehicle. plus it has YAW control...VDC ...it engages the ABS to correct detected roll....

I'd imagine it would roll more easily than an Altima... but it's not scary to drive at all. It really did do a great job in that snow on Sunday. The Nitto Dura grappler tires are new and excellent, as well.



As for ABS, bruce is right. it's not supposed to make you stop FASTER. it's supposed to help you stop SAFER.

Off road or in deep snow, ABS lengthens stopping distance because a locked up tire will amass a pile of dirt or snow in front and that actually aids in deceleration. but how often do we really drive in that condition?
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:17 PM   #35
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ABS can lengthen stopping distance on wet roads as well. The focus is on safer stopping, as you say, so the brakes adjust to avoid locking the wheel. You're not supposed to pump or feather anti-lock brakes because the system does it for you.

I love, love, love my 2005 4Runner. And I'm getting it back! Yay! It has never gotten stuck - in deep mud, driving across snowy fields, you name it. Although it did once go into a 4-wheel slide on I-80 in the PA Alleghenies and almost took me through the too-low guardrail of a high bridge. Wasn't its fault; I forgave it, once my heart restarted.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:32 PM   #36
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The others have already provided the numbers, so I'll throw in a little experience ... my 2005 4Runner was one of the last SUVs to have true 4WD. You have to shift over to it manually at low speed. You can then shift to a lower differential if needed. Not only does 4WD get you going, it gives you immeasurably better traction and control in snow and mud of various depths. It's not meant to be used above 50-55 mph and the owner's manual is emphatic about this. Of course - if conditions warrant 4WD, you shouldn't be traveling that fast. But if you have to navigate country roads and steep hills in a severe snowstorm (Canadian or American), you'll do it at relatively low speed, far more safely in 4WD than in 2WD or all-wheel drive. 4WD is good for much more than just getting going. My $0.02.
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:09 PM   #37
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:30 PM   #38
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THIS IS IMPRESSIVE

check out the amount of articulation this thing gets. around 17 & again at 55 seconds... you see the wheels stretch down to stay in contact with the ground, and squish up to allow it to climb over things...
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:05 PM   #39
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
ABS does NOT allow you stop faster. ABS allows you brake as hard as possible, while retaining the ability to control(steer) the vehicle around shit.
Why do cars with ABS brakes have higher crash rates? And why did GM promote them as a solution to stopping on ice? Spinning myths (and the resulting spinning car) is easy when a majority of consumers are educated by hearsay and advertising. Most people only believe the first thing they are told. Then get angry rather than learn when ABS realities are reported.

Both ABS and all-wheel drive were promoted as safer. If true, then someone said why. Nobody did for one simple reason. Only recited was an impression promoted by hearsay and advertising.

All-wheel drive cannot work properly if wheels are not designed to fight each other. That interlocking means four wheel drive gets one moving. Accurately reported is to not use all-wheel drive above 50 because all-wheel drive means the wheels fight. 50 MPH severely decreases safety. All-wheel drive also decreases safety at 30. Just not as much since at 50, since higher speed means these vehicles often roll over. A result of interlocked and fighting wheels.

Lola Bunny asked about safer and more reliable cars. Speed sensitive steering makes them even safer. Since that means a driver knows about black ice and other dangerous conditions unknown to SUV drivers.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:14 PM   #40
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No, no, no. Speed-sensitive steering does NOT mean that a driver knows about black ice (where are your numbers proving that SUV drivers don't know about black ice and other dangerous conditions, tw?). It means that the steering is closer to pure rack-and-pinion at lower speeds and has a little play at high speeds, so that amateur drivers don't inadvertently twitch the wheel at 110 mph and throw themselves across the median.

And you're confusing 4WD with all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive assigns more drive to the wheel(s) with traction. 4WD drives equally from all four wheels. All-wheel drive was engineered for higher speeds; 4WD is meant for low speeds. Do not use 4WD above 50 mph.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:24 PM   #41
lumberjim
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Tw, How do wheels fight one another? What do you mean by that? And, how does it results in the rollover?
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:29 PM   #42
xoxoxoBruce
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tw's throwing around information he heard decades ago, and even the little that has some basis of truth is sadly out of date.
But this isn't helping Lola because being an urban Texan, I doubt she needs anything capable of real tough going, just family transportation.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoc View Post
It means that the steering is closer to pure rack-and-pinion at lower speeds and has a little play at high speeds,
Heavy power steering so common in SUVs means you cannot tell when tires start losing traction. With speed sensitive steering, you can actually feel which wheel has struck ice. Know that a road is turning to ice long before the crash can happen.

There is no significant increased play at higher speeds. Once a car is moving more than 5 MPH, then power steering is no longer useful. It only keeps the driver ignorant of road conditions. Twitching at 110 is not eliminated by speed sensitive steering. Vehicles with worst steering keep power steering always on. To mask an inferior design and poor tracking. Especially true of some vehicles that did not use rack-and-pinion (ie trucks and SUVs).

A 'not informed' driver 'feels' safer when power steering is always left on. No speed sensitive steering is why some SUV drivers *feel* safer on ice. They have no idea. Power steering always left on also masks a crappy steering system. And can increase the automaker's profit by $20.

Lumberjim - why do I keep posting this here and in another thread. And you still do not read it?
Again: All-wheel drive and 4 wheel drive are functionally same. The original 4 wheel drive was so tightly interlocked that Jeeps would even flip over front to back. Newer designs 'loosened' that interlock while new names were invented for each variation. But in every case, wheels still must be interlocked. Otherwise it (4 wheel / all-wheel) does not get you started.

Lumberjim, your own video demonstrated 4 wheel drives unable to move when some wheels spin and the interlock is too loose. If any one wheel spins on ice and the wheels are not interlocked tightly, then the engine only spins that wheel faster and spins no other wheel. Even your video demonstrates what I kept saying here and in other threads.

Sometimes you can hear tires fighting even in a parking lot. If tires rotate independently, then a screech on sharp turns does not happen. Some SUVs are so tightly interlocked as to even screech tires while turning into a parking space. Sales brochures forget to mention that.

Interlocking is, for example, why I found a new all-wheel (4 wheel) drive truck under a porch. His truck went off road, through a mailbox, and ended up underneath the porch. Why? He was using all-wheel drive. He believed popular myths rather than learn why interlocked wheels decrease safety and control at speed.

Posted again are many reasons why 4/all wheel drive means less safety at speed. And why it is necessary to get the vehicle started. The next useful reply will finally say why interlocked wheels are safer; why tires do not fight for traction.

Myths about four/all wheel drive and ABS (which the same people repeatedly deny without saying why) are irrelevant to Lola Bunny who is asking for a safer and more reliable vehicle. Who will tell her she needs all-wheel drive ... by saying why.

Last edited by tw; 12-10-2013 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:51 PM   #44
lumberjim
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Lola, have you looked at the new Sentra? It's really come a long way. Looks very similar to the Altima. Much bigger than it used to be.
http://m.nissanusa.com/?original_pat...VehicleLanding
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:53 PM   #45
lumberjim
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It has speed sensitive variable power assist steering. And ABS!
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