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Old 05-24-2005, 04:15 PM   #31
Happy Monkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
The victim named him as the perpetrator, he confessed to the crime, and there's likely to be physical evidence from the sexual assault that implicates him as well. Trifecta.
Yeah, I thought so, but I missed the word 'he' in
Quote:
She said the last thing she remembers is that he looked over her with these big eyes and then she said she went to sleep.
As for physical evidence, the ripped and dirty clothes could probably also be analyzed to match it to the scene.
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Old 05-24-2005, 05:36 PM   #32
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Missed you, Sidhe!

Thought you were gone for good, girl. Nice to have you back in full form!
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Old 05-24-2005, 06:02 PM   #33
tw
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If the death penalty were such a deterrent, then 42% of those with a high school education or less would not be cigarette addicts. It’s not the penalty that is a deterrent. Deterrence is the probability of getting caught.
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:03 PM   #34
Troubleshooter
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Deterrence is the fear of being punished.

Without the three C's punishment doesn't work.

Certainty

Celerity

Severity
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:08 AM   #35
elSicomoro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
Without the three C's punishment doesn't work.

Certainty

Celerity

Severity
Okay...who stole TS's login?
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:48 AM   #36
Catwoman
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glatt, thank you. SO many people wouldn't have thought of - or would have rejected - that question. It's so good to hear someone else saying something so important.

Anyway, let's address the question. Do we need justice?

Scenario A
Man commits murder. Man is sentenced to death or life imprisonment. Man will never kill again.

Scenario B
Man commits murder. Man is sent to prison. Man no longer a danger to society. Man gets released. Man has the option of a) rehabilitation or b) comitting another murder. That is man's choice.

Scenario C
Man commits murder.

Scenario A appears to be the safest, most logical option, if we agree that murder is bad (I will make this assumption) and that the act of murder is likely to be repeated (I wouldn't assume that) and an indicator of an unsafe human being (ah my assumptions are coming unstuck).

Let's start again. "Murder is bad." Agreed. We can be sure of that as we can be sure of anything.

"The act of murder is likely to be repeated." The man killed someone, therefore he will kill again. I'm sorry, I can't make this leap of logic. Past should not be taken as an indicator of future on it's own merits. It can be an indicator, but one needs to analyse the present to be completely sure. (For example, when I was 16 I liked Boyz2Men. Now I don't. The fact that I once did is no indication that I do now.)

The final principle, "Murder is an indicator of an unsafe human being" is closely linked, but instead of suggesting that the man who committed the murder is likely to do it again, it insinuates that there is an underlying factor that caused the man to kill, and this underlying factor is irredeemable, and thus, logically, if murder is bad, the man is bad, and should be destroyed or removed from society.

Scenario A most effectively caters for this line of thinking.

Now, to Scenario B. The man is punished, but it's a bit of a half-ass punishment. He is sentenced to 25 years but only serves 12, costs the country a good few dollars and then returns to society. If rehabilitation has occurred (ie he will not kill again), the punishment has served its purpose. If it hasn't, that's thousands of dollars and another victim wasted. So how do you know if rehabilitation has occurred?

In the first instance, one needs to look at what the word suggests. 'Re-habilitation'. Re-habiting. The man was once 'habitable' (fully integrated into societal habits ie not killing), and broke the habit. Therefore he needs to be rehabilitated to become once more a correctly functioning member of society. This suggests that he is not inherently BAD, but he broke the rules and, more importantly, that the act of breaking a rule as a one off incident and not a mark of a habitable person - a person who's habit is murder.

The word 'murderer' also suggests that there is no such thing as a one-off killing. Once labelled a murderer, he will always be a murderer, even if he only did it once. Is it right that because I stole some make up when I was 12 I am forever labelled a thief present tense?

So, we now have two arguments. The 'that man is bad' argument, concluding in the death sentence or life imprisonment; or the 'that was a one off' perspective, concluding in rehabilitation.

Finally, Scenario C. Man commits murder. Nothing is done in the way of punishment. Questions are asked only by academia, not society. There is no cost on society in the way of dollars or emotions - including news reportage, court cases, moral debates. The person he killed is dead. He continues to function in society as he did before the murder.

I would recommend Scenario C for the one-off rule breaker. The woman who snaps and kills her violent husband. The son who kills his mother's rapist.

I would recommend Scenario B for the habitable. The serial killer. The child porn fanaticist. These are people with a passion, a compulsion, a habit. It's just the wrong habit. Redirect it to something constructive. It's not the habitual nature in itself that's at fault, but the way in which they choose to express it. Some people switch lights on and off 12 times before leaving a room. This obsessive compulsion is the same as that of a celebrity stalker, or a serial killer. They have an obsession. Treat the obsession, redirect their obsessive nature towards church or music or anything less dangerous.

Now, one might (quite understandably) agree that the compulsive nature is not evil in itself, and one could tolerate obessive compulsive behaviour in friends or hell even mildly in themselves. But then, why does HER compulsion manifest itself in harmless activities such as light flicking whereas HIS compulsion becomes something much darker: a murderous compulsion.

Do you see that this does not matter? I am going to go slightly back on myself now and say that is IS the compulsive nature that's at fault, NOT the manner in which it is lived out. The compulsive light-flicker has the same internal makings of a serial killer. They are just better integrated into societal habits: better conditioned.

If you are religious, you may believe in clear-cut good and evil. And if we agree to live in a theocracy then people who murder should be sentenced to death. Not out of spite or retribution, but to remove them from the planet. Destroy the enemy. You don't need to gloat in public, because if they are actually evil it won't have any impact anyway. If they're not evil, and they feel embarrassment at public humiliation, maybe you shouldn't have prescribed Scenario A, as this person is clearly capably of retribution because he feels embarrassed. Embarrassment is a social feeling, betraying a desire to be socially accepted which means he is habitable.

I'm tired of writing now. Hopefully someone else can pick up from here.
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:56 AM   #37
xoxoxoBruce
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Thank you for a perfect example of why sometimes homicide is justifiable.
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:58 AM   #38
Catwoman
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I'm autistic and don't understand sarcasm. Please explain.
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:52 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamore
Okay...who stole TS's login?


{Foghorn}It's a joke son! You're too short son! The fast ones go right over your head!{/Leghorn}

But seriously, those three things are the most important part.

1) They have to know that they will be punished,

2) They have to know that the punishment will be delivered quickly,

3) They have to know that the punishment will be severe enough to make the experience one they don't want to repeat.

The rest of it is making the punishment fit the offense.
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Last edited by Troubleshooter; 05-25-2005 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:18 AM   #40
Lady Sidhe
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Murder is baaaaaad, mmmmkaayyy?
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:22 AM   #41
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I agree entirely, whether perpetuated by the state or the individual.
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:37 AM   #42
Lady Sidhe
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Onyx, thanks...good to be back.

Wolf: right on! You said it much better than I could have (in re rehab of sex offenders)

SM: You said it much better than I could have...all of it. I tend to come across a little strongly to people who don't know me, or know how I debate. If I argue a point, I argue it from one side, because I've already looked at all the options and information and made my decision, and then argue from there. I sometimes---ok, I USUALLY--tend to forget to explain how I got to where I am...it's forgetting those little details that just smacks me in the back of the head. I looked at things from a utilitarian point of view for a long time, but, believe it or not, I've become more moderate since college.

Justice, to me, does not have to be exclusive of revenge. It is justice that one who takes the life of another, in cold blood, should pay life for life. The murdered person will never get a second chance. Why should the person who took that life, destroying the lives of not only the individual, but their family and friends as well, get one?

And if prisons were self-sufficient, I probably wouldn't have such a problem with it. But I resent having to pay to take care of people who would kill me with indifference if it suited their purpose...or who would rape and kill my daughter because they get off on little kids.

Some people just need to be recycled, you know?



....soylent green is peeeeeeeeeople......(sorry, couldn't resist)



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Old 05-25-2005, 09:46 AM   #43
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Quote:
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Mahatma Gandhi
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:49 AM   #44
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I understand the philosophy of it, LS, but do you really feel comfortable with our govt/legal system making the choice as to whether a person's life should be taken? What about folks who were innocent, or acted in self defense? That isn't probably considered "cold blooded" to you, but why should we leave that decision in the hands of an already misguided, if not incompetant group of people? Who is fit to make that judgement? You? Me? The victims of a crime? An educated removed individual sitting behind a wooden podium? A group of conditioned people sitting in wooden benches having had all kinds of spin flung at them by lawyers looking to win a case? I don't feel comfortable giving anyone that kind of power.

Sure, there are a lot of sick people out there, looking to hurt you or your family. And if one of them does, how does revenge on that person really fix the problem? It just gets rid of the person who did it, but it doesn't rid you of the experience. It will happen with other sick people and their innocent victims. So are we just going to shoot everyone who gets acused of a crime worthy of it? And which crimes *are* worthy of killing someone?
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:52 AM   #45
Catwoman
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I understand the act of settling on a point and then arguing from it without explaining. It can get tiring repeating your 'workings' and you can forget them somtimes ('I know this is my point of view I just can't remember why').

Your point about justice - one life for another - is valid. But what you must realise is that not all crimes are the same. Not every murder is a cold-blooded killing with no regard for their actions, no conscience and no sense. What would you do if you were alone with a guy who had locked you in a room, spent 3 days torturing you, raping you, shitting on you, and you saw a knife and your opportunity. Would you kill him and get the fuck out of there? Or would you, calmly and rationally, think 'oh I couldn't possibly do that, killing is wrong, and therefore every killing is wrong, so I can't kill him. I wouldn't want to risk the death sentence.'

Come on Lady S, I can get over your dogmaticism if you have a point, but please recognise crime is not black and white (nor is it predominantly black if that's your next joke) and sometimes there is margin for error.

If you recognise there is variation in crime you cannot wax lyrical about standardised punishment or justice.
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