The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Current Events

Current Events Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2016, 05:06 PM   #61
sexobon
I love it when a plan comes together.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,793
You know that you probably could have picked a better name for your organization when at least 141,000 people think it should be labeled a "terror group."

Quote:
WH responds to petition to label Black Lives Matter a "terror" group

After days of violence and heightened racial tensions in the U.S., the White House responded this week to an online petition asking the federal government to formally label the Black Lives Matter movement as a "terror group." ...

...Because the online document received at least 100,000 signatures --at the time of this reporting, it had garnered over 141,000 names -- the White House was automatically prompted to respond. ...
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2016, 07:07 PM   #62
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet View Post
Or there's systemic/institutional bias. Possible, no?
If there is this bias, let us prove it out. What we have are selected anecdotes about incidents, which are heartbreaking in every way. But not really proof.

I just heard of one that happened two miles from my home town, just last year. As kids, we rode bikes right near where this happened.

The following is a true story. It is an anecdote. It proves nothing:

This cop pulls a guy over for an expired inspection sticker: two months out of inspection.

The guy is age 59, and there's 6 inches of snow on the ground... but he gets out of the car and starts to try to run. For no reason at all, with no evidence at all, the cop decides he has a gun. The cop tasers him, and he lands face down in the snow. He lands with his hands up, but the cop continues to taser him, over and over and over, and he goes into convulsions; and, naturally, his hands drop down. At that point, the cop shoots him. In the back.

He didn't have a gun. And his jacket was zipped up, so it would have been tricky to reach for one.

In this case, they prosecuted the cop; but you know a central Pennsylvania jury would not convict a police officer. The cop even decided to go back to work - and would have - until the community got together and fought it.

Had you heard of this? I hadn't heard of it until today. Why haven't we heard of this?

Cos the full story doesn't affect the current narrative, so it's not interesting. So people don't care and so it doesn't make national news. Full story is here.

You may watch the bodycam footage if you like that sort of thing. It's pretty frickin' horrible. But like the nature videos, sometimes you have to see and acknowledge what life is. Especially if you wish to speak to it.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2016, 07:29 PM   #63
Big Sarge
Werepandas - lurking in your shadows
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 3,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet View Post
Or there's systemic/institutional bias. Possible, no?
Throughout the whole US with African Americans actively participating in said bias? Don't forget these juries and prosecutor offices have African American serving on them.
__________________
Give a man a match, & he'll be warm for 20 seconds. But toss that man a white phosphorus grenade and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Big Sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2016, 07:39 PM   #64
Big Sarge
Werepandas - lurking in your shadows
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 3,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
If there is this bias, let us prove it out. What we have are selected anecdotes about incidents, which are heartbreaking in every way. But not really proof.

I just heard of one that happened two miles from my home town, just last year. As kids, we rode bikes right near where this happened.

The following is a true story. It is an anecdote. It proves nothing:

This cop pulls a guy over for an expired inspection sticker: two months out of inspection.

The guy is age 59, and there's 6 inches of snow on the ground... but he gets out of the car and starts to try to run. For no reason at all, with no evidence at all, the cop decides he has a gun. The cop tasers him, and he lands face down in the snow. He lands with his hands up, but the cop continues to taser him, over and over and over, and he goes into convulsions; and, naturally, his hands drop down. At that point, the cop shoots him. In the back.

He didn't have a gun. And his jacket was zipped up, so it would have been tricky to reach for one.

In this case, they prosecuted the cop; but you know a central Pennsylvania jury would not convict a police officer. The cop even decided to go back to work - and would have - until the community got together and fought it.

Had you heard of this? I hadn't heard of it until today. Why haven't we heard of this?

Cos the full story doesn't affect the current narrative, so it's not interesting. So people don't care and so it doesn't make national news. Full story is here.

You may watch the bodycam footage if you like that sort of thing. It's pretty frickin' horrible. But like the nature videos, sometimes you have to see and acknowledge what life is. Especially if you wish to speak to it.
I'm not comfortable with that shooting, but I'm not ready to throw out our jurisprudence system over it. Because she was acquitted, was there any rioting and looting in the streets? Did they assassinate any police officers over this verdict?
__________________
Give a man a match, & he'll be warm for 20 seconds. But toss that man a white phosphorus grenade and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Big Sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2016, 11:25 PM   #65
BigV
Goon Squad Leader
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
If there is this bias, let us prove it out. What we have are selected anecdotes about incidents, which are heartbreaking in every way. But not really proof.

--snip.
What constitutes proof of bias?

I want to have an idea of what you consider the finish line is. Evidence of systemic, institutional racial bias in our society *abounds*, but you choose your words carefully, you have very high standards. You insist on "proof" before you'll accept that it exists.

You tell me what your snipe looks like, and I'll go hunting for it.
__________________
Be Just and Fear Not.
BigV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 07:03 AM   #66
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Quote:
Evidence of systemic, institutional racial bias in our society *abounds*
OK well first, we'll have to agree on what to prove!

Is ^ that it?
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 07:16 AM   #67
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Quote:
You insist on "proof" before you'll accept that it exists.
This is the most complimentary thing you've ever said about me. Thank you!
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 08:12 AM   #68
Spexxvet
Makes some feel uncomfortable
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Had you heard of this? I hadn't heard of it until today. Why haven't we heard of this? Cos the full story doesn't affect the current narrative, so it's not interesting. So people don't care and so it doesn't make national news.
The people who value human life care. The people who expect those with authority to not abuse it care. "Why haven't we heard of this?" Because the group that is publicizing cops killing blacks is publicizing cops killing blacks. Cops misbehaving can be publicized by another group. FWIW, I remember that when it was reported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sarge View Post
Throughout the whole US with African Americans actively participating in said bias? Don't forget these juries and prosecutor offices have African American serving on them.
Black cops can have institutional bias against black citizens.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562077/...-implicit-bias

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sarge View Post
I'm not comfortable with that shooting,
Well, it's refreshing to see that you don't just blindly defend ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sarge View Post
but I'm not ready to throw out our jurisprudence system over it.
Oop - there it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sarge View Post
Because she was acquitted, was there any rioting and looting in the streets? Did they assassinate any police officers over this verdict?
I guess White Lives Matter™ isn't doing their job very well, are they?

When (insert special group here) are killed by cops in the proportion that young black men are, that group will react in a similar way. Jews avenged the Holocaust, the French Resistance fought Vichy France, Palestinians fight Israel, etc. When a group feels oppressed, they lash out. I'm not condoning it.

The Police position can be A - "we're justified in what we've done and will continue" (and kill even more young black men as they crack down), B - "we've made mistakes and will take steps to correct our behavior" (and kill fewer black men, or at least penalize cops who are doing it wrong), or C - "we're going to stop doing our job - see how you like society with no policing". I hope they choose B.
__________________
"I'm certainly free, nay compelled, to spread the gospel of Spex. " - xoxoxoBruce
Spexxvet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 09:37 AM   #69
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
"you have very high standards. You insist on "proof" before you'll accept that it exists"

This is as it should be, don't you think?

When life or livelihood is at stake, shouldn't the bar be set high? Shouldn't evidences be offered that are indisputable, that can't be widely (mis)interpreted?

If Joe, a black man, is accused of murder, is it not the obligation of the accuser to 'prove' it?

If Joe, the cop, is accused of bias, accused of abusing his lent power, it s not the obligation of the accuser to 'prove' it?

If institutional bias is claimed, is it not the obligation of the claimant to, in the least, offer sumthin' compelling, unambiguous, and direct as evidence?

There are bad cops, bad whites, bad blacks, bad asians, bad dems, bad repubs, bad christians, bad jews, bad muslims, bad atheists, and on and on...comes down to this: there's seven billion people on the planet and a sizable chunk of them are dumbasses, jackasses, and nutjobs...bad eggs who do bad things...such folks cobble together reasons for doin' what they do (race, religion, politics, money, land, sex, and on and on) but these are just the justifcations...strip those away and the dumbasses, jackasses, and nujobs will still do the bad things.

It's a mistake on the part of well-intentioned folks to give weight to cobbled together reasons (justifications)...doin' that opens the door to givin' dumbasses, jackasses, and nutjobs an out...it's the equivelent of trying to understand or advocate for a rabid dog instead of just identifying it then shooting it.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 10:25 AM   #70
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
It's a mistake on the part of well-intentioned folks to give weight to cobbled together reasons (justifications)...doin' that opens the door to givin' dumbasses, jackasses, and nutjobs an out...it's the equivelent of trying to understand or advocate for a rabid dog instead of just identifying it then shooting it.
Question is not about one example. A systematic bias clearly exists against one class of people - more specifically hispanics and blacks. If you deny that bias exists, then say so. Address the topic with numbers.

Completely irrelevant here is whether people riot, whether the judicial system must be scrapped, or that many bad people exist. Relevant question is about a persistent and one side bias against some people who are colored differently. Fact say it exists - significantly. If you dispute this, then what facts dispute this? Does this bias exist? Yes or no - with facts.

Henry Louis Gates in 2009 demonstrated a problem that statistics confirm. An emotional bias that news reports now demonstrate are widespread. Do you disagree with the existence of that problem? Does all of law enforcement have a larger problem? Or do some bad apples more than make all others look bad? Does law enforcement use a blue mask to ignore a problem in their ranks? That some are corrupted by the power they possess.

Statistics clearly demonstrate a problem exists. Or do you deny it?

That is obviously not you as in henry quick. That obviously is you as in everyone who reads this. Or did 'you' assume something different? An example about what creates bias.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 11:07 AM   #71
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
Statistics clearly demonstrate a problem exists.

Please, some one, post those stats, and the source of those stats.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 02:47 PM   #72
Big Sarge
Werepandas - lurking in your shadows
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 3,408
Here are some stats from the dailywire we can all mull over. Some support my viewpoint, some support yours.

1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to Mac Donald in a speech at Hillsdale College.

Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 13 percent of the population. But as Mac Donald writes in The Wall Street Journal, 2009 statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.

"Such a concentration of criminal violence in minority communities means that officers will be disproportionately confronting armed and often resisting suspects in those communities, raising officers’ own risk of using lethal force," writes MacDonald.

MacDonald also pointed out in her Hillsdale speech that blacks "commit 75 percent of all shootings, 70 percent of all robberies, and 66 percent of all violent crime" in New York City, even though they consist of 23 percent of the city's population.

"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods."

2. More whites and Hispanics die from police homicides than blacks. According to Mac Donald, 12 percent of white and Hispanic homicide deaths were due to police officers, while only four percent of black homicide deaths were the result of police officers.

"If we’re going to have a 'Lives Matter' anti-police movement, it would be more appropriately named "White and Hispanic Lives Matter,'" said Mac Donald in her Hillsdale speech.


3. The Post's data does show that unarmed black men are more likely to die by the gun of a cop than an unarmed white man...but this does not tell the whole story. In August 2015, the ratio was seven-to-one of unarmed black men dying from police gunshots compared to unarmed white men; the ratio was six-to-one by the end of 2015. But Mac Donald points out in The Marshall Project that looking at the details of the actual incidents that occurred paints a different picture:

The “unarmed” label is literally accurate, but it frequently fails to convey highly-charged policing situations. In a number of cases, if the victim ended up being unarmed, it was certainly not for lack of trying. At least five black victims had reportedly tried to grab the officer’s gun, or had been beating the cop with his own equipment. Some were shot from an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the officer. And two individuals included in the Post’s “unarmed black victims” category were struck by stray bullets aimed at someone else in justified cop shootings. If the victims were not the intended targets, then racism could have played no role in their deaths.

In one of those unintended cases, an undercover cop from the New York Police Department was conducting a gun sting in Mount Vernon, just north of New York City. One of the gun traffickers jumped into the cop’s car, stuck a pistol to his head, grabbed $2,400 and fled. The officer gave chase and opened fire after the thief again pointed his gun at him. Two of the officer’s bullets accidentally hit a 61-year-old bystander, killing him. That older man happened to be black, but his race had nothing to do with his tragic death. In the other collateral damage case, Virginia Beach, Virginia, officers approached a car parked at a convenience store that had a homicide suspect in the passenger seat. The suspect opened fire, sending a bullet through an officer’s shirt. The cops returned fire, killing their assailant as well as a woman in the driver’s seat. That woman entered the Post’s database without qualification as an “unarmed black victim” of police fire.

Mac Donald examines a number of other instances, including unarmed black men in San Diego, CA and Prince George's County, MD attempting to reach for a gun in a police officer's holster. In the San Diego case, the unarmed black man actually "jumped the officer" and assaulted him, and the cop shot the man since he was "fearing for his life." MacDonald also notes that there was an instance in 2015 where "three officers were killed with their own guns, which the suspects had wrestled from them."

4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Greg Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene.

5. Blacks are more likely to kill cops than be killed by cops. This is according to FBI data, which also found that 40 percent of cop killers are black. According to Mac Donald, the police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

Despite the facts, the anti-police rhetoric of Black Lives Matter and their leftist sympathizers have resulted in what Mac Donald calls the "Ferguson Effect," as murders have spiked by 17 percent among the 50 biggest cities in the U.S. as a result of cops being more reluctant to police neighborhoods out of fear of being labeled as racists. Additionally, there have been over twice as many cops victimized by fatal shootings in the first three months of 2016.

Anti-police rhetoric has deadly consequences.

This article has been modified to correct Greg Ridgeway's name.
__________________
Give a man a match, & he'll be warm for 20 seconds. But toss that man a white phosphorus grenade and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Big Sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 02:48 PM   #73
Big Sarge
Werepandas - lurking in your shadows
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 3,408
Original article: http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5...-aaron-bandler
__________________
Give a man a match, & he'll be warm for 20 seconds. But toss that man a white phosphorus grenade and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Big Sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 04:07 PM   #74
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Here's the Economist on it. It's in this week's edition so, tw, perhaps it is in the mail.

http://www.economist.com/news/united...es?frsc=dg%7Cd

Black Harvard prof (who is not Dr. Gates) studies the problem in depth in Houston. First, he removes his own bias:

Quote:
AS A teenager, Roland Fryer had “unpleasant” run-ins with police. Officers pointed guns at him six or seven times. Even now, the youngest African-American to get tenure at Harvard wonders why police shout loudly at him as soon as he forgets to indicate when driving. But when the economist began researching racial differences in the use of force by police officers, he did not want his own experience to prejudice his findings. To understand how cops work he joined them on the beat in New Jersey and Texas.
Impressive! Key bits:

Quote:
Based on the raw data, blacks and Hispanics were more than 50% more likely to encounter police force than whites...

...Blacks were 17.3% more likely to incur use of force after controlling for the characteristics of the civilian (such as age) and the encounter (such as if they ran away, complained or hit an officer)...

...blacks who were reported by cops as being perfectly compliant with police instructions during their interactions were still 21.1% more likely than whites to have some force used against them...
BUT THEN when it came to use of deadly force:

Quote:
What shocked Mr Fryer was when he looked in detail at reports of police shootings. He got two separate research teams to read, code and analyse over 1,300 shootings between 2000 and 2015 in ten police departments, including Houston and Los Angeles. To his surprise, he found that blacks were no more likely to be shot before attacking an officer than non-blacks. This was apparent both in the raw data, and once the characteristics of the suspect and the context of the encounter were accounted for.

Mr Fryer dug deeper into the data. He combed through 6,000 incident reports from Houston, including all the shootings, incidents involving Tasers and a sample in which lethal force could have justifiably been used but was not. What he found was even more startling: black suspects appear less likely to be shot than non-black ones, fatally or otherwise.
So, Houston via the Economist, same as the WaPo: Blacks more likely to have to deal with police, more likely to have bad dealings... and less likely to be shot at.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 10:21 PM   #75
Big Sarge
Werepandas - lurking in your shadows
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 3,408
Well Undertoad, that was quite a zinger you threw in the ring of facts. How will TW and others counter counter that last fact?
__________________
Give a man a match, & he'll be warm for 20 seconds. But toss that man a white phosphorus grenade and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Big Sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.