I defaulted to politics on this one, I was torn.

[iamthewalrus109]

Regardless of whether Christ existed or not, it's the teachings of Christ (or whomever) that are the important parts. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are what to be gleamed out of the Gospels, not whether he liked pita, or was real or unreal. Wake up folks.

-Walrus

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

Regardless of whether Christ existed or not, it's the teachings of Christ (or whomever) that are the important parts. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are what to be gleamed out of the Gospels, not whether he liked pita, or was real or unreal. Wake up folks.

-Walrus

Wake up walrus.

The basis of Christianity is saving grace (redemption of sin, final sacrifice, etc) pivots on Jesus' existence, life, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Without that, the rest of it crumbles. If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him? He was simply a heretical Rabbi.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him?

Because good ideas will stand on their own merits. The ideas credited to him are some really good ones.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him? He was simply a heretical Rabbi.

Someone can have good ideas without being divine. Selflessness, kindness, and the golden rule are good ideas no matter who Jesus' father was.

And persecuted heretics are more likely to have thought more deeply about the subject than orthodox people - they may or may not be more correct, but they have at least considered it deeply.

[iamthewalrus109]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Wake up walrus.

The basis of Christianity is saving grace (redemption of sin, final sacrifice, etc) pivots on Jesus' existence, life, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Without that, the rest of it crumbles. If Jesus wasn't who he was, why listen to him? He was simply a heretical Rabbi.

That's all window dressing and the dogma of it all. As a Catholic, having been read the Gospels at length, I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels. To only try to pick apart the Gospels for the mystical aspects and the then debunk it is a bit short sighted. If that is all you saw, then you are blinded by a secular pesimism that has consistently thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

-Walrus

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

That's all window dressing and the dogma of it all. As a Catholic, having been read the Gospels at length, I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels.

-Walrus

*blink*blink*

[Clodfobble]

then you are blinded by a secular pesimism

This was the one I was dumbstruck by...

[iamthewalrus109]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

then you are blinded by a secular pesimism

This was the one I was dumbstruck by...

The comment was made in reference to the "herretical Rabbi" comment, not onyxcougar directly. If someone only saw the story that way, then its a short sighted pesimistic view in my eyes. The secular part is in reference to debunking anything religious, point out how none of it could happen based on "facts", regardless if the teachings are based on life and the better treatment of your fellow man. That's all. None of which takes into consideration the possiblity of the inherent value of the teachings. Furthermore, if Christ was real, do you really think he would want people only to treat others well because he said so, that goes against the entire concept of Christ. I reject Cougar's assertion of "why listen to the teachings then" mentality. If you can't just listen to the words and the morals they try to teach, and you need a lot of fire,brimstone and proof that Jesus was the son of God to scare you to be good, I feel sorry for you.

-Walrus

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Gotta agree with Walrus on this one. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. He had some great moral and ethical teachings to give, however. If the only reason people try to act as they are told to in the Gospels, then they are actually not following Christ's teachings at all. They are just children pretending to be good, so Dad won't get out his belt.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Me too.
It's like dismissing a post out of hand because it doesn't link an impressive expert. Read the words, ponder the thoughts, then if you disagree with the message that's your privilege.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Me too.

I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels.

2 John

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Hebrews

10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Tonchi]

How did we get this far along without somebody remembering Gore Vidal's "LIVE, from Golgotha!"?

[iamthewalrus109]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I saw the beauty of the words. The compassion it taught, the ability to love others who hate you, etc. There truly is no other work like the Gospels.

2 John

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Hebrews

10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You want to start quoting the Bible now? Are you mad. First off I was refering specifically to the Gospels. Although there are moments in John that are a bit puritanical, there are many other instances, especially in Luke, Mark and Matthew that are beautiful treatises on compassion and good will. It's what one sees in anything is the issue here. Some see a bunch of holy rollers expressing self-rightegousness and damnation to all those who don't believe, but that's not what I see. As far as Hebrews is concerned, if you know anything about Judeo-Christian docrtine percieving the Gospels as part of the Bible, God is vengeful and Jesus is merciful, it's a balancing act. If you look closely the appearance of Jesus is signifigant because it rails against convential Jewish dogma as it stood at that time. Either a construction or fact, for one to read the Bible and constantly outline and highlight the parts of condemation is still short sighted and pesimistic. It's a matter of opinion obviously. Some brief examples of compassion and beauty: John 8:1-11 is in reference to Jesus' actions in saving Mary Magdalene from that famous stoning scene. Also LUKE 4:28-29 refers to Jesus' compassion in the stoning issue. MARK 5:21-30 64-65 - Where Jesus is touched by a woman with a terminial infriment and is healed, is also one of the most touching moments in the Gospels. MATTHEW 5 69-70 - Jesus sermon on the mount, how can you not be moved by this piece. As someone who has been through the Catholic school system, I should be the one tearing down Jesus, or God, but I refuse. I was taught the Bible since I was 5 or 6, and I still feel the same about it today. I was told by countless nuns that I was going to hell, many times quoting passages from John, but I refuse to submit to such condemnation. I do my best to treat people as noted in these religious teachings, not out of fear for my soul, but out of the compelling nature of the teachings and the way they touched my heart, plain and simple. Accordingly, if you look at the sum of Jesus' teachings, he wanted people to love each other because we are all God's children, in effect no different than him, only difference being he had to die for the sins of others. The pain and suffering of Christ is also an area of great inspiration, many condemed others in his name, but Christ always had mercy on those who "knew not what they did"


-Walrus

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

The comment was made in reference to the "herretical Rabbi" comment, not onyxcougar directly. If someone only saw the story that way, then its a short sighted pesimistic view in my eyes. The secular part is in reference to debunking anything religious, point out how none of it could happen based on "facts", regardless if the teachings are based on life and the better treatment of your fellow man. That's all. None of which takes into consideration the possiblity of the inherent value of the teachings. Furthermore, if Christ was real, do you really think he would want people only to treat others well because he said so, that goes against the entire concept of Christ. I reject Cougar's assertion of "why listen to the teachings then" mentality. If you can't just listen to the words and the morals they try to teach, and you need a lot of fire,brimstone and proof that Jesus was the son of God to scare you to be good, I feel sorry for you.
-Walrus

Please don't misunderstand. *I* don't think that way, but there are many secular folks who do, which is why I made the comment.

[OnyxCougar]

Many times people ask me

"If God is a loving God, why does he allow suffering?"

(this is one I get from Jews alot) "God is eternal and unchanging. If Jesus was really the Messiah, then by definition, God changed the rules. That is not who God is, so Jesus was not the Messiah."

"I can't get behind a religion that scares people into believing."


These are all examples of people who haven't read the material, or at very least have a poor understanding of it. What other reasons have you given (or heard) that people use as an excuse not to believe? (This does not include people who flat out admit they don't want to believe because they simply don't want to. I'm talking about people who say they are seeking but give excuses.)