Gitmo Update

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

More grist for the mill: freed from Guantanamo in 2007, now deputy leader of Al Qaeda's Yemeni branch.

Because of what America did, it is only reasonable for hundreds of innocent prisoners from Gitmo to now become terrorists. Can anyone blame them? Of course not.

How was Jemaah Islamiya (ie Bali bombings) completely defeated? No torture. No Guantanamo. Instead they used tactics that even professional American interrogators used to actually get information (which completely contradicts wacko extremist politics): From the BBC on 13 September 2006:

In the fight against the international terrorist threat in Indonesia, one man has become an invaluable ally. Nasir Abbas explains why, after men he trained carried out the Bali bombing in 2002, he decided to change sides.

For many years Nasir Abbas was one of the most wanted jihadis in South East Asia.

He was a member of al-Qaeda's regional affiliate, Jemaah Islamiya (JI).

The Malaysian trained the Bali bombers in Afghanistan, established a jihadi training camp - Camp Hudabiya - in the dense jungles of Mindanao in the southern Philippines, and rose to become the head of JI's military training division, known as Mantiki Three.

He was close to some of the most notorious militants in the region and brother-in-law of Mukhlas, the mastermind of the 2002 Bali bombings.

Those he trained and those he knew went on to operate not just in South East Asia, but in other parts of the world. ...

Innocent lives

According to Mr Abbas' philosophy of jihad, it is acceptable to fight and kill foreign forces occupying Muslim countries like the Soviets in Afghanistan, the Americans in Iraq or the Philippine army occupying ancestral Muslim lands in Mindanao, but killing innocent civilians - men, women and children - is forbidden.

This is the philosophy of modern violent jihad outlined by Palestinian Abdullah Azzam, acknowledged to be the "father" of modern violent jihad.

With this distinction in mind, the 2002 Bali bombings in which 202 civilians died, made Mr Abbas think again about the organisation to which he had belonged for almost a decade.

When he discovered that his former students, whom he had trained in Afghanistan in the early 1990s, were responsible, he was deeply shocked.

"I feel sorry, I feel sin," he said, "because they used the knowledge to kill civilians, to kill innocent people."

It was only when he was arrested six months later in April 2003, that Mr Abbas finally decided to put his past behind him.

Switching allegiance

As he was taken off for interrogation, he feared the worst.

"I believed that the police were very cruel and used torture to get their answers," he said.

But Mr Abbas was in for a surprise. He was treated with civility and Muslim respect.

He was also surprised that so much was known about him and was puzzled as to how his interrogators knew.

He was arrested one evening and kept silent until the following morning.

Then he decided to talk and help the police, because he thought it was God's will.

He said he felt "responsible, in front of God, to stop all these bad deeds."

From that point on, Mr Abbas tried to persuade his former comrades that their interpretation of the Koran was wrong.

He urges them to "return to the right path of Islamic teaching."

But he did much more than that.

He actively assisted the police in tracking down and arresting some of his former comrades and felt no guilt in doing so.

On trial

His ultimate test of allegiance came almost two years after his arrest when he gave evidence in court against the alleged spiritual leader of JI, Abu Bakar Ba'asyir.

Mr Ba'asyir was charged with conspiracy in connection with the 2002 Bali bombing.

There was a near riot in court when Mr Abbas gave evidence that Ba'asyir had personally made him the leader of Mantiki Three and had attended a passing out parade of Mr Abbas' graduates at Camp Hudabiya.

Ba'asyir was given a two-and-half year prison sentence.

High risk

Mr Abbas continues his work today.

Last week another JI member against whom he gave evidence, Mohamed Cholily, was sentenced to 18 years for involvement in the 2005 Bali bombing.

And earlier this year he provided police with information that helped them track down Azahari Bin Husin, JI's master bomb maker, who made the 2002 Bali bombs.

The jihadi who turned has every intention of carrying on.

... because he was not tortured.

Gitmo is why we had so many fictonal orange alerts such as the Golden Gate Bridge and Newark's Prudential Building. Torture justified by extremists politics only results in no useful intelligence - and Cheney's denials. Gitmo only made America less safe. Obvious once we learn what professional interrogators have always said. Obvious once we ignore wisdom based in extremists politics and extremist propaganda (such as the TV show "24").

Gitmo only created hundreds of potential new terrorists out of people who were once never a threat.

BTW, to break Jemaah Islamiya, Indonesian investigators denied access by Americans who love torture. Indonesians did not need America's extremist politics making a mess of their investigation. A stunningly successful investigation because they kept extremists away and used investigation techniques that even the American FBI had used successfully (ie 1993 WTC bombing, USS Coled, etc). But even the FBI got no more information once the administration started using torture, Gitmo, secret torture prision, Abu Ghraid, et al techniques.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Gitmo only created hundreds of potential new terrorists out of people who were once never a threat.

Kill 'em all and blame Castro.

[classicman]

or kill 'em all and take the credit.
(Wasn't that the plan to begin with?)

[Undertoad]

Another one. In the same group as our previous al-Shihri. You'll have to read this one carefully:

"By Allah, imprisonment only increased our persistence in our principles for which we went out, did jihad for, and were imprisoned for," al-Shihri was quoted as saying.

Well, next time he won't be imprisoned. Next time he'll be reduced to paste by a predator drone:

PAKISTAN received an early warning of what the era of “smart power” under President Barack Obama will look like after two remote-controlled US airstrikes killed 22 people at suspected terrorist hideouts in the border area of Waziristan.

That IS smart: instead of the messy business of invading, shooting at people, having to take prisoners, set up military tribunals with attention whore lawyers and code pink morons banging at the door -- just kill them, remotely.

If the jihadi's abdomen can't be located, it just might decrease his persistence.

[xoxoxoBruce]

"By Allah, imprisonment only increased our persistence in our principles for which we went out, did jihad for, and were imprisoned for," al-Shihri was quoted as saying.

Sure sounds like an admission of guilt to me.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That IS smart: instead of the messy business of invading, shooting at people, having to take prisoners, set up military tribunals with attention whore lawyers and code pink morons banging at the door -- just kill them, remotely.

Boom goes the dynamite!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Pssst...post 19.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If the jihadi's abdomen can't be located, it just might decrease his persistence.

Well stated.

[TheMercenary]

I think they really should not give them a choice. Load them up in a C-17 and drop them off. End of story.

April 24, 2009
Yemen Dispute Slows Closing of Guantánamo
By WILLIAM GLABERSON and ROBERT F. WORTH
The Obama administration’s effort to return the largest group of Guantánamo Bay detainees to Yemen, their home country, has stalled, creating a major new hurdle for the president’s plan to close the prison camp in Cuba by next January, American and Yemeni officials say.

“We’re at a complete impasse,” said one American official who is involved in the issue but was speaking without authorization and so requested anonymity. “I don’t know that there’s a viable Plan B.”

The Yemeni government has asked Washington to return its detainees and has said that it would need substantial aid to rehabilitate the men. But the Obama administration is increasingly skeptical of Yemen’s ability to provide adequate rehabilitation and security to supervise returned prisoners. In addition, American officials are wary of sending detainees to Yemen because of growing indications of activity by Al Qaeda there.

The developments are significant for the Obama administration because the 97 Yemeni detainees make up more than 40 percent of the remaining 241 prisoners at Guantánamo Bay. The question of what to do with them “is integral to the process of closing Guantánamo,” said Ken Gude, an associate director at the Center for American Progress who has written about closing the prison camp.

The standoff over the Yemeni detainees comes on top of other difficulties that have emerged since President Obama announced his intention to close the prison that has drawn international criticism for years.

continues:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/wo...gewanted=print

[classicman]

Officials: Gitmo court system likely to stay open

WASHINGTON – The Obama administration may revamp and restart the Bush-era military trial system for suspected terrorists as it struggles to determine the fate of detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and fulfill a pledge to close the prison by January.
The move would further delay terrorism trials and, coupled with recent comments by U.S. military and legal officials, amounts to a public admission by President Barack Obama's team that delivering on that promise is easier said than done.
One official said the Obama administration planned to use the extra time to ask Congress to tweak the existing military tribunals system that was created for the detainees. Critics of former President George W. Bush, who pushed Congress to create it, have said the system violated U.S. law because it limits the detainees' legal rights.

Now, faced with looming deadlines and few answers for where to transfer the detainees, the Obama administration may keep the tribunal system — with a few changes.

Asked at a Senate hearing last week if the administration would abandon the Guantanamo system, Defense Secretary Robert Gates answered: "Not at all."

"The commissions are very much still on the table," Gates said, adding that nine Guantanamo detainees are already being tried in military tribunals.

Gates also alluded to the administration's likely request for Congress to tweak to law that created the Guantanamo legal system.

But administration officials have said they hoped to try many in U.S. federal courts, relying on civilian prosecutors instead of on the military law.

Among the planned changes to the law, both officials said Saturday, would be limits on the evidence used against the detainees. Much of the evidence compiled against at least some of the detainees is classified and cannot be used in civilian courts without exposing the secret material.

Since Obama ordered the prison closed, Republicans have seized on the issue of where the detainees will go — and the new Democratic administration lack of a plan to deal with them.

"Closing Guantanamo is not a good option if no safe alternatives exist," Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said in a statement Saturday.

Paul F. Rothstein, a Georgetown University legal ethics professor, said the dilemma highlights differences between campaign rhetoric and the realities of the courtroom.

"Once you become president and see the whole panoply of issued that you face, some of the things that seemed easy to promise or talk about during the campaign sometimes appear more difficult," Rothstein said Saturday. "Elections are fought on big slogans without much nuance or detail. I think we want a president who responds to what he sees when he actually gets in there and sees the whole picture, rather than one who adheres rigidly to what he said before."

Hmm.. Now what?

[TGRR]

Try 'em. If they're guilty, shoot 'em. If not, process them as a regular deportee.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Open the doors and let Cuba deal with them.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Open the doors and let Cuba deal with them.

You're supposed to try them before they get shot.

[classicman]

May 15 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama will keep the military tribunal system for trying terrorism suspects held at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and expand legal protections for defendants.

The Defense Department will ask a military court for another delay in trials of suspected terrorist as the first step in revamping and reviving tribunals for some detainees, Obama said in a statement.

“We will seek more time to allow us time to reform the military commission process,” the statement said. “These reforms will begin to restore the commissions as a legitimate forum for prosecution, while bringing them in line with the rule of law.”

The actions would revive a system put in place by former President George W. Bush with changes that address objections that Obama raised about the policy during his presidential campaign. Human rights groups criticized the president’s decision, while several key lawmakers voiced their support.

Obama said he wanted to preserve the military commissions system as a proper forum “for trying enemies who violate the laws of war, provided that they are properly structured and administered.”

Good - If done properly this is the best course of action - Try and convict if guilty then sentence or if innocent move on.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I think he came to the conclusion that allowing them into the court system would become a dog & pony show of mammoth proportions. Defense lawyers would be subpoenaing everybody and their brother, plus millions of documents the government doesn't want public.
I think Obama want to clean up this mess as expeditiously as possible.