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Old 06-03-2008, 10:08 AM   #61
DanaC
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I can see arguments for and arguments against making contact with these people. Like most questions regarding humanity it isn't an easy one to answer. I don't know whether the best thing is to contact or not. I just know that it isn't as simple as bringing the benefits of civilisation to those who are potentially trapped in a less enjoyable way of life. Sure, they may suffer more in terms of infant bereavement than we do, but they may also suffer significantly less mental illness, depression and social isolation than many of our peoples do.

There is no easy answer to this. They are people, and shouldn't be treated like some beautiful but endangered rhinos. Protection zones to prevent contact? Not so sure of that. Sounds a bit like turning them into a protected species. Actively seeking to contact them? Profoundly dangerous in terms of potential negative effects. We could potentially wipe them out with disease or fracture their society by dint of our very presence.

Or, they could be freed from damaging and frightening superstitions, brought a longer life. Mothers could be freed from the grief of burying half their babies. Injuries would not necessarily cripple but be better healed and less likely to infect with anti-biotic treatments. For all we know they are an unhappy society just waiting for some kind of catalyst for change.....
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:11 AM   #62
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Ok, put away that innate liberal cultural self-loathing for a second, and think about the best, the absolute best that modern society has to offer.

Medicine that can prevent death. Knowledge of how the physical world works. Gender equality (which both history and anthropology have shown us is something developed and chosen, not something indigenous to any culture).

We DO have something to offer them, and they are better things than they currently have. I don't buy the myth of the "noble savage", and this insane idea that all of human advancement has been an ever-increasing regression from the perfect unspoilt natural state.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:12 AM   #63
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Then again, we have no idea of their infant mortality rate...if "think of the children" is a viable argument. Perhaps having lived outside of what we know to be society has afforded them immunities and benefits of which we could never dream. However, this notion only opens up the "let's study and see what we can learn" can of worms.

Best if we had never known of them, I think.

I don't buy the myth that our evolvement is the be-all end-all basket of goodies you make it out to be, moniker.

But kudos on the knee-jerk "damn liberal" argument. That's effective. We have evolved, haven't we? Let me slink away in shame for disagreeing. Yawn.

Nice.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:12 AM   #64
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Sorry, I didn't see your last post, Dana, before I wrote mine. I was responding to the earlier sentiments.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:16 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothmoniker View Post
...

Medicine that can prevent death. ...
Medicine can't prevent death, just delay it.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:17 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothmoniker View Post
Sorry, I didn't see your last post, Dana, before I wrote mine. I was responding to the earlier sentiments.
He was responding to me, lest anyone think he needed to attack someone decidedly not on the diplomatic fence.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:18 AM   #67
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In "caveman" times, one's life expectancy would be about 25 years.

By 1850, in modern cultures, if you made it past infancy and childhood, you could expect to see age 45.

Two generations into the industrial revolution, heading into WW2, having achieved refrigeration, telecommunication, and solved many infectious diseases, life expectancy reached 60.

If you were born in 2008 in first/second-world countries, you can expect to see 78. That's 2-3 years longer than it was in 1990.

Do we have it better? Fuck yes we have it better. Do we know more than they do and should we share it? Fuck yes we should, and their grandchildren will thank us for it. Do they want a can opener? Fuck yes they want a can opener. As it is they have to shoot their food with bows and arrows, and smoke it or otherwise preserve so it will remain edible long enough so half the tribe doesn't starve. The utter and obvious "magic" of getting a big serving of non-rotting, nutritious food not covered in bugs would be the best gift anyone could possibly give them. A can opener would solve some of their biggest problems in life. To not give them one, as well as cans, a cheap way to preserve and store food for long periods, is heartless and inhumane.

The advancement of humanity is a wonderful thing. Don't go taking it for granted, and don't say it doesn't mean anything only because all the benefits aren't spread to every single person on the earth. We create problems yes, but we solve two problems for every one we create. To think otherwise would be to usher in a new dark age.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:20 AM   #68
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Amazed at the arrogance here. Just amazed.

Life expectancy of a "caveman" can hardly be compared to the lives of these people who can also have evolved physically, just not in ways we know of. You can't make that assumption.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:22 AM   #69
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Fucking hell

thank you tony. you said it a hell of a lot better than i could.


I'm for preserving cultural diversity as much as any other bleeding-heart liberal out there, but it isnt OUR job to preserve THEIR culture. It's THEIRS. and it would be cruel and wrong to deprive them the chance to take advantage of all the benefits our technology has to offer.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:25 AM   #70
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The real question is this: Who is happier, they or we*?

Based on a lot of posts I see on the Cellar, I would say that they are.



*them or us?
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:27 AM   #71
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How can they, " take advantage of all the benefits our technology has to offer", when they have no money? Do we make them slaves or pets?
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:27 AM   #72
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i can see no reason not to give THEM the option of sticking with their current state or changing. I think its pretty fucking arrogant of us to make that decision for them.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:31 AM   #73
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It's not a fair option without giving them the knowledge of the consequences, also.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:34 AM   #74
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Medicine that can prevent death. Knowledge of how the physical world works. Gender equality (which both history and anthropology have shown us is something developed and chosen, not something indigenous to any culture).
Just because the modern world can offer life-saving medicine does not mean it is available to all who inhabit that world. It is not even available to all who inhabit Brazil and Peru. What on earth makes you think that this group of people will go from having no aspects of the modern world in their lives to having the best that the modern world can offer? That's a huge assumption to make. The risks inherent in wreaking sudden and profound change upon a society are great indeed to be taking on their behalf, based upon an assumption that could well prove false. Are we introducing life-saving medicines and a more fulfilling life, or are we introducing a new conception of poverty and unease?

Noble savage? Doesn't exist and never has. But who's to say they're savages? And for all of our progress how arrogant to say we are better. The city dwellar looks at the rural villager and thinks how strange and uncomfortable to know everybody and have everyone know your business, how strange and how small their world. The villager looks at the city dwellar and thinks how cold to be so anonymous, to have nobody looking out for you, nobody knowing you but your immediate family, no roots beyond your front door. Neither way is more or less civilised than the other and both are very different. We are looking from afar at these people, we only know our own world, how can we possibly know how it compares to theirs. Mathematical formulas of disease and morbidity cannot give us that answer. We don't know what their cultural understanding of the world is, what art they pass from generation to generation.

There is no consensus on the gender question, in the fields of history or anthropology. There are enough anomolies to throw doubt on most theses and there are enough patterns to add weight. We do not know how these people construct gender. It has been constructed differently at different times in different places and cultures have historically had a knack of constructing gender, or allowing enough flexibility in the model, to effectively respond to their needs. Again there are anomalies, most particularly when there are competing needs. If there is a social need for girl babies, but an economic need for boys, we can end up with cultures breaking the fine balance in births that allows them continue.

We don't know anything about these people. There is enough variance amongst the known patterns of development exhibited by 'primitive' cultures that we really can't make too many assumptions.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:46 AM   #75
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OK then, modest proposal time. Obviously we can't just preserve them in some sort of aquarium-like Truman Show; they will be contacted somehow, perhaps they will migrate right into civilization;

So, we send an emissary to explain we're from a tribe next door and sorry about those helicopters;

And then, we'll just say, oh hey, we come in peace and all that... we've figured something out that we'd like to tell you about. It's called a yoke. What we did, we figured out that if you put a bar of wood across two animals' shoulders, they can do a third more work. Do you have any inventions that you can share with our tribe?

And if they like the yoke idea, they will share with us one of their things. Maybe they've found a berry that cures headaches, or a secret to relaxation in the nighttime, or the names of particular Gods that they worship. And we will take their idea/invention/thinking and put it on the web, so that we all can share in what they've done.

And then the next day, we share another thing. (Cans, probably.) Until they don't want to share any more.

Fair enough?
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