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Old 08-02-2018, 05:08 PM   #16
Happy Monkey
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It is in everyone's interest for the forest to be healthy, but it's in each individual's interest to exploit it in their preferred way.
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"It's in each individual's interest for the forest to be healthy and used wisely."
Yep.
Those are not equivalent in the real world. Immediate individual interests beat out everyone's long-term interest frequently. The landslide is in the future, cash in hand is now.


Even if an individual does value the long-term well-being of them and their children over a quick buck, if they see their neighbors making quick bucks, and making the landslide inevitable anyway, they may find it rational to make their own quick bucks, in hopes of minimizing the pain. To actually prevent the landslide, an agreement has to be made across the mountain. That agreement and its enforcement mechanism is, writ large across the countless similar situations in the world, government.


But that's really just a restatement of the tragedy of the commons. My point is that it doesn't just apply to stuff that nobody owns.

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"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind" -Frederic Bastiat
It is indisputable that it is not safe to permit EVERYBODY to be free to do whatever they want. If the organizer sets up a dictatorship, or caste or feudal system, then they think themselves made of a finer clay. If they set up a democracy, they hope that people as a whole are of fine clay, and are able to use the tools that only government can provide to deal with the individuals who aren't, even if they are a member of the government itself.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:08 PM   #17
henry quirk
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"Cost of everything? For health care, $2 Trillion less than we spend now, for the rest, a lot less than the cost of not having them."

I'm thinkin' more of the 'cost' of 'from each, according to ability; to each, according to need'. No doubt some folks will gladly pay up for such a deal, thin-blooded creatures thay are, happy to have 'need' satisfied.

Everyone 'needs', yeah?

Let's not forget, however, about the (slave) labor required to satisfy all that 'need'. As Glatt sez, 'people time and time again act in a greedy way to get ahead at the expense of society'. The greedy rich, the greedy poor, both want the same thing: that which doesn't belong to them.

You ready to serve, to pay the incalculable 'cost'?

Mebbe you are...good on you, you selfless piece of meat.

#

"Theoretically, an individual decides between himself and others, whereas the legislator deciding between doing what's best for everyone or a few, with no(or very little) skin in the game."

Seems to me: inevitably, the legislator serves his own best interest, just like everyone else.

Put your 'faith' in 'you', is my advice (or squander it on 'finer clay' [if you can find it]).
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:10 PM   #18
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"Climate change is increasing exponentially."

https://wattsupwiththat.com/
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:22 PM   #19
henry quirk
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"a proper representative government"

Is that what we have, toad?

Can you can point to a time when we (or anyone) had such a 'fine' thing?

I look at your rep gov, your democracy, and I see grasping hands barely kept in check by other, equally grasping, hands.

You enshrine the grasping hands of 'the mob', claim it's 'proper' cuz 'we the people are the organizers'...more of that 'finer clay'.

Be careful what you wish for.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:32 PM   #20
henry quirk
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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a WINNER!

"It is indisputable that it is not safe to permit EVERYBODY to be free to do whatever they want."

And who sorts that out, separates the wheat from the chaff?

The 'finer clay'.

Faith.
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Old 08-02-2018, 07:39 PM   #21
Undertoad
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Is that what we have, toad?
Yes.

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I look at your rep gov, your democracy, and I see grasping hands barely kept in check by other, equally grasping, hands.
By design.

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You enshrine the grasping hands of 'the mob', claim it's 'proper' cuz 'we the people are the organizers'...more of that 'finer clay'.
Yes I do. It's We The People. It's us man. You and me. Same clay in every person.

The best way is to let everyone vote. The people form their own government. Constitutionally limited with super-majorities required for major changes. That is ideal. Anything else is unthinkable, really.

How great an idea was that? It's amazingly stable. Here's a list of sovereign nations by their date of formation. By birth of current form of government or establishment of sovereignty, the US is the 2nd oldest. It's behind San Marino.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:28 PM   #22
xoxoxoBruce
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I'm thinkin' more of the 'cost' of 'from each, according to ability; to each, according to need'. No doubt some folks will gladly pay up for such a deal, thin-blooded creatures thay are, happy to have 'need' satisfied.
Although it weebled and wobbled for 200 years, our government pretty much worked that way until Reagan. Then "We the People" stopped participating and let special interests gobble congress.
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Let's not forget, however, about the (slave) labor required to satisfy all that 'need'. As Glatt sez, 'people time and time again act in a greedy way to get ahead at the expense of society'. The greedy rich, the greedy poor, both want the same thing: that which doesn't belong to them.
In places like Scandinavia they pay around half their pay in taxes. Recoil in horror, make the sign of the cross, wear garlic, load the guns Ma.
But wait, what do they get for that exorbitant fee? Can you say everything, boys and girls? Everything they need plus the lack of worry about ever needing. Maybe that's a good deal.
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Put your 'faith' in 'you', is my advice (or squander it on 'finer clay' [if you can find it]).
If I put my faith in me I will have to settle for less because even my best efforts are a pisshole in a snowbank compared to the power of the collective we.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:33 PM   #23
henry quirk
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I'm all for the nightwatchman, toad.

But what we got now is far beyond the minimum and narrow night watchman, all-embracing, all-encompassing, all-smothering is what we live under now

'The People': a vast throng, a herd, a sea of flesh to drown in.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:37 PM   #24
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and he traipses into the abattoir...

"If I put my faith in me I will have to settle for less because even my best efforts are a pisshole in a snowbank compared to the power of the collective we."

...I give up.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:50 PM   #25
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Naw. It's not bad. You can visit many fine national monuments and take as many photographs as you like. Most people are honest and friendly.

They opened a casino near me, although I don't go that often. Some people get weed legally now! I think New Jersey will have legal weed next. And, they finally allowed wine sales in grocery stores in my state last year.

Pretty much everyone has a job who wants one, except my friend Jeff who has a criminal record. I don't know what Jeff is going to do but he does keep active on Facebook.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:54 PM   #26
xoxoxoBruce
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You just won't admit the community will raise a better barn, faster that you could ever do it on your own.

You present somebody with a possible explanation for that 131 temperature in Death Valley as rebuttal to Diaphone Jims reference to Global Warming. Tell that to the Polar Bears, Siberians, and Inuits watching the Arctic melt.

You have even resorted to mildly derogatory name calling of people who disagree with you. I'm sure that's out of frustration that we sheep can't see the light, but I think that frustration stems from your inability to see the value of community and government.

Even John Wayne and Billy The Kid needed help.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:12 PM   #27
henry quirk
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"You just won't admit the community will raise a better barn, faster that you could ever do it on your own."

Missing my point, Bruce, not by choice, I think.

You're just incapable of seein' outside the collective.

That's okay...you do what you need to...trust me, I will.

#

"You present somebody with a possible explanation for that 131 temperature in Death Valley as rebuttal to Diaphone Jims reference to Global Warming. Tell that to the Polar Bears, Siberians, and Inuits watching the Arctic melt."

No, I offered up the whole site, not any one article...there's a lot there...read (or not) as you like.

#

"Even John Wayne and Billy The Kid needed help."

From cohorts, cronies, and friends, not mandated from on high.

meh

'nuff said.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:41 PM   #28
xoxoxoBruce
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Don't you see that American style government working the way it should allows the hermit, rugged individual, and oddball to do there own thing, especially if you get out of the suburbs. You can get away with it in the city, but way better in the small towns which are plentiful.

I had half a dozen cars in my yard, none on blocks, but in various states of repair. The local Republican thugs went apeshit and made all kinds of threats, but the PA Supreme Court said hey you bullies, leave that boy alone. The system usually works.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:16 AM   #29
henry quirk
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"Don't you see that American style government working the way it should allows the hermit, rugged individual, and oddball to do there own thing"

An American minarchy would do it better, but that's not allowed.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:56 AM   #30
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Pretty much everyone has a job who wants one
Ehh... kinda. There's a whole ton of people right now with only 32-hour/week jobs because no one wants to provide healthcare. My stepdaughter straight up told her employer, "I'm on my parents' plan, I'll sign whatever you need to get around it, please just give me more hours and skip the healthcare" and they said no. Plus, minimum wage is not currently high enough to pay rent-with-roommates, at least in our area, and the gig economy has people constantly worrying where their next deposit is coming from, which is not a mental state a lot of people can handle.

I'm optimistic. I think in another couple of years we'll have single-payer, and a boost in the minimum wage. What would really help is if they'd finally tack minimum wage to inflation and a regional economic benchmark, so it could be different in Topeka vs. NYC but still increased automatically without this painful legislative back-and-forth every few years.
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