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Old 11-22-2013, 08:44 AM   #16
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post
It's possible the next Israeli leader will feel differently, and both sides will peacefully keep their nuclear weapons (if Iran does get them). Personally, I'm not optimistic that such a "cold war" between Israel and Iran, will be able to take hold and sustain itself.
That's only one part of the problem. As has been posted here long ago, Turkey said they too will need nuclear weapons if Iran has them. Pakistan is rumored to have set aside some nuclear weapons for Saudi Arabia should Iran build one. Khan (of Pakistan) has successfully created a new market for Pakistani exports.

Does not help that George Jr blew a giant hole in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty by offering nuclear material to India. And that Iran and N Korea both need nuclear weapons because of his 'Axis of Evil' speech that said we will unilaterally attack both nations. These nuclear proliferation problems were created, in part, by an American government that even invented Saddam's WMDs because they (ie Cheney) only saw solutions in military actions. It is a legacy we and the region must now live with. And a lesson on why problems must be solve diplomatically.

Concepts even explained in "The Art of War" were violated by Cheney who could only understand military solutions - with contempt for the American serviceman. He never understood the power or need for diplomacy (which explains his contempt for Colin Powell). Cheney routinely violated those and many other well understood concepts. And so we have these now serous nuclear problems.

Iran is now stuck in the nuclear development pipeline because we said we would unilaterally attack Iran. And inadvertently may have created or encouraged a region wide nuclear standoff. It may not only be Israel and Iran. Both Turkey and Saudi Arabia will also need those weapons. Pakistan will be happy to provide them.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by tw View Post
That's only one part of the problem. As has been posted here long ago, Turkey said they too will need nuclear weapons if Iran has them. Pakistan is rumored to have set aside some nuclear weapons for Saudi Arabia should Iran build one. Khan (of Pakistan) has successfully created a new market for Pakistani exports.
Yes, Saudi's have already ordered their first nuclear package from Pakistan. I'm sure others will follow, if Iran is able to keep theirs.

Nobody in the Middle East trusts Iran not to get nuclear weapons, if it has nuclear facilities hidden in the mountains, and without any inspectors from the international community.

Quote:
Does not help that George Jr blew a giant hole in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty by offering nuclear material to India. And that Iran and N Korea both need nuclear weapons because of his 'Axis of Evil' speech that said we will unilaterally attack both nations.
We had to get India into nuclear arms, because it had two threats that were very real:

1) China was ready to annex a large part of Northern India.

2) Pakistan was ready to annex all of the Kashmir region.

And both of the above already had nuclear weapons, and aggressive nationalistic policy leaders in place.

North Korea HAD already been working on a nuclear bomb, long before we knew about it, or George Bush Jr. was president. When that became known, THEN they became part of Bush's "Axis of Evil", and it is hard to say he's wrong.

OK, the "Axis" part is wrong, simply because there is no unity between these countries. No Treaties to support each other, etc., are known to exist, so there is no axis. Sorry George!

When a country swears it will wipe you out, and works hard to develop nuclear weapons to make it possible, in secret, it's only logical to put them on your Evil list, isn't it?

How much more evil do they have to be?

Quote:
These nuclear proliferation problems were created, in part, by an American government that even invented Saddam's WMDs because they (ie Cheney) only saw solutions in military actions. It is a legacy we and the region must now live with. And a lesson on why problems must be solve diplomatically.
Many problems can't be solved diplomatically. Iran for instance, won't budge "one iota" from it's position. North Korea has negotiated, but only to go right back to working on nuclear weapons, again. Still threatening to wipe out South Korea, the U.S., and our friendly nations. ("puppets" in their words).

The only reason the Cold War came to an end, is because the Soviet Union ran out of money - they were utterly broke.

There WAS no "diplomatic solution" until they couldn't feed their people, and prepare for war, anymore.

Quote:
Concepts even explained in "The Art of War" were violated by Cheney who could only understand military solutions - with contempt for the American serviceman. He never understood the power or need for diplomacy (which explains his contempt for Colin Powell).

Cheney routinely violated those and many other well understood concepts. And so we have these now serous nuclear problems.

Iran is now stuck in the nuclear development pipeline because we said we would unilaterally attack Iran. And inadvertently may have created or encouraged a region wide nuclear standoff. It may not only be Israel and Iran. Both Turkey and Saudi Arabia will also need those weapons. Pakistan will be happy to provide them.
We have to include Iran in the Evil category, not because they are developing nuclear facilities, but because they sponsor (HUGELY) Hezbollah. You may recall that Hezbollah was the group that bombed the Marine barracks when they were in Lebanon, trying to keep the peace in that countries civil war.

I would call Iran many things, but a peace loving nation is not one of them. Nuclear ambitions aside, they do NOT seek peace. They sponsor terror.

Iraq didn't have WMD, when we invaded, but they had them previously - we know, because we sold them specialized equipment for creating poison gas, decades before. Saddam had the program terminated after the outcry over his gassing of the Kurds in a few villages, reached the media.

Saddam never had nuclear weapons, or facilities to create them, but he did have a LOT of mobile missile launchers, aimed at Israel. Before the advent of the better Patriot Missile defense system (and now Iron Dome, etc), those would have been devastating, if used. We had a hell of a hard time finding and destroying them, btw.

If you're hunting for outrage or sympathy for Saddam being deposed in Iraq, you won't find it here. I wouldn't have done it probably, but I don't have the benefit of intelligence briefings by the CIA, etc., either. The world is not a worse place, because Saddam and his topmost regime, are gone from Iraq.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Adak View Post
We had to get India into nuclear arms, because it had two threats that were very real:

1) China was ready to annex a large part of Northern India.

2) Pakistan was ready to annex all of the Kashmir region.
Too much soundbyte reasoning in those statements. Even the story of Marine barracks in Lebanon changes completely once we include numerous other facts - that cannot be presented in soundbytes.

Take India. India already has plenty of nuclear weapons. They did not need that hole in the Non-Proliferation Treaty. What George Jr was doing to undermine that treaty (as he was doing to other treaties even with Russia) is confounding.

Meanwhile, we also know Clinton literally flew shuttle diplomacy between India and Pakistan to defuse what was almost a nuclear exchange. Because India had more than enough nuclear weapons before George Jr was president.

India did not need more nuclear material. But appreciate a paranoia in Pakistan. Every year, as many babies are born in India as the entire population of Pakistan. The most serious threat to nations of that region (and to the US) is Pakistan. Putting more nuclear material in that region (in violation of the Non-Proliferation Treaty) does not make it safer.

That is a simple example. That cannot be explained in a soundbyte. Those other points required many times more facts not possible in soundbyte conclusions.


Iran clearly has interest in negotiating a solution. Because embargos do work. Iran elected a moderate leader; not a wacko extremist like Ahmadinejad. Somehow a consortium of world top power sent naive idiots to negotiate a resolve to the Iranian crisis? That is the theme of your posts. As if American, British, UN, French, Russian, et al negotiators know less than you?

We know they are negotiating in a hotel because Iran finally has interest in settling this problem. Because sanctions have been so effective as to even get extremists removed from power.

Now let's see what people who know better finally resolve.
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Old 11-24-2013, 07:31 AM   #19
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25074729

Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities in return for about $7bn (4.3bn) in sanctions relief, after days of intense talks in Geneva.

US President Barack Obama welcomed the deal, saying it included "substantial limitations which will help prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon".

Iran agreed to give better access to inspectors and halt some of its work on uranium enrichment.

President Rouhani said the interim deal recognised Iran's nuclear "rights".

But he repeated, in a nationwide broadcast, that his country would never seek a nuclear weapon.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:11 PM   #20
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I applaud their efforts in this negotiation, but Iran has not put a REAL stop to their nuclear ambitions.

As Israeili Prime Minister Netanyahu, states here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25083875
(video link near the middle of the article)

Some sanctions that took years to put into place, and more years to become effective, will be removed, but Iran could be back enriching it's uranium in a matter of a few weeks. The plutonium is still there, the heavy water reactor is still functioning.

Not just still THERE, but still a working nuclear facility.

The world powers have told Iran it's OK to have their own nuclear enrichment site. If Iran can have one, then everyone can have one - that's clear. This is a major precedent, surely.

And what about the inspections? They can be held daily, at just two facilities - notably, NOT at the heavy water facility.

Hoping for the best here; short term, it's easy to see it as a win-win, but I'm not optimistic about the terms of this deal, being enough to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons. How hard can it be to have your nuclear weapons program run from sites OTHER THAN, the two being inspected, over and over?

We can win wars frequently, but we're not nearly as good at winning negotiations.
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Old 11-25-2013, 05:38 AM   #21
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What have we won with war lately?

Bibi will not be satisfied with anything short of war. Thankfully he isn't part of our government, although he does have his minions.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Griff View Post
What have we won with war lately?
Wars are won only when we are reluctant to engage. Wars are lost by nations in a hurry to conduct one.

Israel's Likud is an example of the latter. Likud will heavily compaign for unilateral attacks (and against peace) where they are more often successful - the US Congress.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by tw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
What have we won with war lately?
Wars are won only when we are reluctant to engage. Wars are lost by nations in a hurry to conduct one.
Well said.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:28 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Griff View Post
What have we won with war lately?

Bibi will not be satisfied with anything short of war. Thankfully he isn't part of our government, although he does have his minions.
1)
With the help of the cold war arms race, we destroyed the Soviet pact of nations aligned with Russia. Many are now independent, and democratic republics. That is to say, their lack of a vibrant economy, destroyed themselves, with few bullets having been fired.

That's the biggest step toward world freedom of nations, since the break up of the Ottoman Empire, almost a hundred years ago, so it's a VERY big deal.

2)
We stopped the German nationalists/fascists, twice. If we had not done so, we would now be either German servants/slaves, or exterminated in more efficient gas chambers/crematoriums.

This is what the Germans told the Lithuanians after they were conquered in WWII, when asked what will become of us:

"We are leaving for the Eastern Front. You will be allowed to work for us, until we get back. Eventually, you will be liquidated."

So stopping the fascists was a pretty big deal, if you aren't fond of Cyclon B gas.

3)
We replace a repressive dictator in Iraq. Bush lied to us to do it, but still, it's done, and I'm not sad about knocking off a regime that gassed it's own citizens, and started two wars (with Iran and us, in Desert Shield), and invaded two other countries: Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Whether you believe the ripple effect of this was the springboard for the "Arab Spring" or not, is up to you. Some would say it was, and I find their argument of the time line, believable.

4)
We knocked a big hole in Al-Qaeda's groups of religious fascists. It hasn't put them out of business, but they're busy dodging hellfire missiles, pretty much, to attack us very successfully.

5)
The U.N. was begun to work out issues that without diplomacy, would lead to war. Without WWI and WWII, there wouldn't be a U.N.

6)
Since the US was not attacked directly (much), during these wars, we were hugely benefited by the industrial capacity we had, to be the supplier or war material, to the Allies. This gave us a huge increase in wealth in our country.

We rose to be a superpower, in the space of a mere 50 years or less. Every American has benefited from that.

And that's just for starters.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:20 PM   #25
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I agree with number 2 in the second case.
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Old 12-01-2013, 01:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Adak View Post
You may not like my opinions, or my posts, but it doesn't mean they're wrong.
It's not your opinions I question it's your facts. When they come from talk radio, they aren't facts they're someone else's opinion, and what you heard, or thought you heard, is not verifiable unless you can link to transcripts.
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:13 PM   #27
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It's not your opinions I question it's your facts. When they come from talk radio, they aren't facts they're someone else's opinion, and what you heard, or thought you heard, is not verifiable unless you can link to transcripts.
Then argue your case, but let's leave off the ad hominem attacks.

Wherever my assertions come from, what do you care? Your facts all came from somewhere else as well, unless you attended the Iran nuclear negotiations, personally. Well, did you? No, you got your "facts" from some media outlet, same as I did. If you choose to believe the lies coming out of the White House, you go right ahead.

Take the Iran nuclear negotiations deal just reached. Iran's President is saying the 5+1 nations agreement means that the world recognizes Iran's right to enrich nuclear material. Which is stunning, because Obama says no such change in the nuclear proliferation treaty has been made, and Iran has no such right.

The ACTUAL terms of the treaty, have not been printed by any outlet I have found.

I've heard three interpretations of the inspections in the treaty:

1) We can inspect two nuclear facilities, every day, if we like, but not the Plutonium enrichment site, or any other site.

2) We can inspect the Plutonium plant, as well as two other facilities, but not the facility where nuclear weapons are believed to be researched and developed in. That site is off limits.

3) We can inspect ONLY sites ACKNOWLEDGED by the Iranian authorities. That means we'll never find a nuclear weapons site, in a million years of inspections. The Iranians will simply not acknowledge that site for inspections.

Which of the above is correct? We don't know. The treaty language could be so ambiguous that it's simply unclear - but without the actual wording, no one knows.

Obama has reached out to the Iranians, as he said he would years ago - fine. The two parts I don't like are:

1) The treaty has not been put out to the media, so we can read it.

2) Obama stiffed our allies, by dealing directly with Iran, without their knowledge, for months before this treaty meeting. The French, Saudi's, and especially Israel, were livid about this. The Saudi's and the Israeli's have now been left with a huge lack of security they must try to mitigate.

I'm expecting this treaty - or is this just an agreement - will have to reach the Congress somehow. Maybe then, we'll find out what the facts really are about this THING.

Allowing nuclear enrichment, in THE COUNTRY that is the worlds biggest supporter of terrorism - by far, (Hezbollah, Hamas, Rev. Guards in Iraq, fighting us, etc.), should be undertaken with a great deal of clarity as to the terms, and complete verification, with unannounced inspections at ANY facility the IAEA wants to inspect, on any day.

Last edited by Adak; 12-01-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
...If you choose to believe the lies coming out of the White House, you go right ahead.
<snip>
The ACTUAL terms of the treaty, have not been printed by any outlet I have found....
Adak, is there anything even slightly illogical between those two remarks ?
How do you know the White House is lying ?

You also say:
Quote:
Take the Iran nuclear negotiations deal just reached. Iran's President is saying
the 5+1 nations agreement means that the world recognizes Iran's right to enrich nuclear material.
Which is stunning, because Obama says no such change in the
nuclear proliferation treaty has been made, and Iran has no such right.
NPR News uses similar words, but to different meanings:
Eyder Peralta
November 24, 2013

Quote:
What You Should Know About The Iran Nuclear Deal
<snip>
— The Fine Print: As the White House explained the deal in a "fact sheet,"
Iran has agreed to halt any enrichment above 5 percent
and [to] neutralize any of its stockpile that is near-20 percent.

Iran has also agreed to "unprecedented transparency and intrusive monitoring" of its nuclear program.
In return, the U.S. and its partners have agreed to drop some of its sanctions, amounting to about $6 to $7 billion in relief.

— On Some Enrichment,
They've Agreed To Disagree:
One of the toughest diplomatic dances that happened in this agreement is about Iran's "right to enrich."
Iran has insisted that the world recognize it has a right to enrich uranium for peaceful means.
The U.S. has insisted that it has never recognized that right for other countries and it would not do so for Iran.
In your opinion, what is "the White House lie" ?
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lamplighter View Post
Adak, is there anything even slightly illogical between those two remarks ?
How do you know the White House is lying ?
Do you believe the lie about the Benghazi attack that killed our Ambassador? You know, the one that Susan Rice was instructed to tell PERSONALLY by Obama?

Ever hear of anybody going to an anti-video demonstration with c4 explosives, RPG launchers, squad level machine guns, and mortars?

Naw, me neither!

The eye-witnesses who survived the attack have been forbidden by the President, to speak of it, with anyone, or face jail time. It's been over a year now. Why do you suppose Obama ordered that?

When the President has personally worked out some "Agreement" with a former enemy, but the full content is not revealed, do you really believe he's telling us ALL the facts about the agreement?

Or do you think he's NOT telling us all the facts? Just the facts that make him look good? You know, because the Democrats have a mid-term election in 2014, and his popularity in the polls, is as low as Bush's ever was. So low, that Democrats voted to change Obamacare, in the House last month. They want to be re-elected, and Obama is becoming radioactive with the voters.

Politicians have a LONG history of outrageous lies to the public, because a lot of what they lied about, wasn't known by the public. Now, we know, if we want to.

One example:
JFK, was a horrible womanizer, who used to bring along his current girl friend, on trips around the country. He infuriated Jackie Kennedy, by including the gf in the reception line, forcing Jackie to shake hands with her. In French, Jackie protested to the French Canadian Mayor of the City they were visiting - then dutifully shook her hand.

The press knew it, the secret service knew it (arranged for it in fact), but was it ever reported in the news?

NEVER!

Quote:

You also say:


NPR News uses similar words, but to different meanings:
Eyder Peralta
November 24, 2013

In your opinion, what is "the White House lie" ?
The Iranian president announced to a cheering crowd, that the agreement supports Iran's right to have nuclear facilities. But Obama is telling us that Iran still has no right to have nuclear facilities which could create nuclear weapons fuel. But the Plutonium facility is not closing down, and it's not being dismantled either.

Also, the terms of the inspections. Sec. of State Kerry says everything in the agreement will be "verified, verified, verified". But others are saying inspections will be very limited, and never include the suspected nuclear weapons development facility.

And both can't be right.

If Obama had nothing to hide, why wouldn't the agreement be put out in full, to the media, or at least, to Congress, and then to the media?

When politicians hold back info, it's because it's embarrassing to them, or to their party, or both. They'd rather fall back to lying.

Like Clinton saying he "didn't have sex with that woman". His defense: "It depends what you definition of is (having sex), is".

And Republicans lie just as much, unfortunately. Look at Senator Edwards - his wife is dying of cancer, and still supporting him on his Presidential nomination campaign. Only to find out he's had a mistress for years, and one or two kids with the mistress.

Mostly, politicians don't lie. They "shave" the truth, to make themselves look good, and simply leave off the bad truths, and hope you won't find it.

The famous "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" that lead to our going into the Vietnam War, never happened - total fabrication to justify fighting the communist take over of a VERY corrupt and murderous, South Vietnam gov't.

Net result: 50,000 + American soldiers killed.

That's what I believe Obama and Kerry are doing here, with the Iran negotiations. They are shaving the truth, so they don't look bad, but it won't end well. It puts all of the Sunni Muslim countries around Iran (notably Saudi Arabia, etc.), and Israel, in a security nightmare.

Last edited by Adak; 12-01-2013 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:32 PM   #30
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Then argue your case, but let's leave off the ad hominem attacks.
I have argued my case, repeatedly. I've spent hours rounding up verifiable facts, with links to the sources, crossed the T's and dotted the I's. But you know what, it's a waste of my fucking time. The Breitbart foot soldiers won't acknowledge verifiable facts, they'll just spout another outrageous "fact" fabricated from whole cloth or so twisted it's mom wouldn't know it.

Quote:
The ACTUAL terms of the treaty, have not been printed by any outlet I have found.
This is true, but it seems that hasn't stopped a shitload of people weighing in on what they think about the agreement.

All the clowns are playing to their minions, whether it be Islamic Clerics, Likud, the tea party, or whatever. They must keep the minions entertained.
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