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Old 11-08-2018, 08:04 PM   #31
henry quirk
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"Your uphill neighbor dumping toxic waste on his side of your property line."

Shit, i thought you were tryin'.

If the waste isn't physically impingin' on me and mine, then he ain't messin' with me and I got no call to do diddly.

If the waste is makin' me and mine sick, or damagin' my property, well that's a horse of another color.

Try harder.

As conceiving a circumstance: you're the one askin' questions; the burden of conception is on you, not me.

#

"you just want to find some flaw with whatever example I come up with, and dismiss the general concept"

Yep, just like you wanna find flaws in my notions so you can dismiss 'em.

Let's not play games here, HM. We both know what you're up to.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:17 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
If the waste isn't physically impingin' on me and mine, then he ain't messin' with me and I got no call to do diddly.

If the waste is makin' me and mine sick, or damagin' my property, well that's a horse of another color.
You could have gotten sick for any number of reasons. He's just minding his own business, dumping on his own property.
Quote:
Yep, just like you wanna find flaws in my notions so you can dismiss 'em.
If your notions rely on everyone agreeing on what "their own business" is, I've found the flaw already.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:24 PM   #33
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Also, do you have to wait until you get sick before you can demand the poisoning stop?
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:29 PM   #34
henry quirk
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"You could have gotten sick for any number of reasons. He's just minding his own business, dumping on his own property."

That's what the court is for: to arbitrate between the irreconcilable and to determine guilt and compensation.

#

"If your notions rely on everyone agreeing on what "their own business" is, I've found the flaw already."

Are you stupid?

I used to not think so.

If I was suggestin' a 'happy time utopia' why would i say there'd be courts, cops, and soldiers? Hell, the very first example I gave was 'robbery' (clearly Stan had a different view of what was his to mind than Joe who takes him to task for it).

You're just tired and not tryin', or you're stupid.

I'm gonna go with the first (bein' the generous soul I am).
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:36 PM   #35
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"You could have gotten sick for any number of reasons. He's just minding his own business, dumping on his own property."

That's what the court is for: to arbitrate between the irreconcilable and to determine guilt and compensation.
Arbitrate based on what? The cop's or the judge's feelings on what people's own business is?
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:39 PM   #36
henry quirk
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"Also, do you have to wait until you get sick before you can demand the poisoning stop?"

Obviously, if I can't prove he's harming me, mine, or my property, I need to mind my own goddamned business.

If I think he is, and I can't get him to cool it, I call the cops and the investigation begins (along with a temporary cease & desist order till shit is sorted out).
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:43 PM   #37
henry quirk
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"Arbitrate based on what?"

The evidence showing the dumping is hurtin me and mine, or that dumpin' is not hurtin' me and mine.

If he's dumpin' X and X is found on my property, in my blood, and if X makes living things sick...you see? You get it?
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:45 PM   #38
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How is "harm" defined? Especially to property? Lower perceived value? Death of plants? If you keep bees, and he coats his property in insecticide, does that harm you?
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:00 PM   #39
henry quirk
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"How is "harm" defined? Especially to property? Lower perceived value? Death of plants? If you keep bees, and he coats his property in insecticide, does that harm you?"

if my bees die and the investigation shows it was cuz of his poison then, yeah, that harms 'me' cuz he's deprived me of my property.

So a claim of 'harm' has to be demonstrable, be physical...obviously.

I'm almost done here (cuz you're wastin' my time) Make your next post worth my while or I'm out.
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:11 PM   #40
henry quirk
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I'm out anyway...got better things to do...here's a g'night present...

Libertarian Theory (pretty damn close to my view)

This approach assumes that individuals take precedence over government. They inherently possess certain rights which the government should preserve and promote. This view assumes that human beings are capable of choice and development on their own without the help of government. Government should merely provide the institutions and mechanisms which will enable individuals to exercise their rights and pursue their private interests. Individuals are more important than the political community, and their rights and interests supersede those of the community. Libertarians see government as necessary because the clash of individual interests creates conflict. This requires institutions which can mediate these differences. The ideal government as envisioned by libertarians would be one in which general, impersonal laws and disinterested judges provide the peace and security under which each person can pursue private interests. Thus, the libertarian has a notion of justice that is purely procedural in nature. A procedural view of justice sees the political system as legitimate as long as it applies fair rules and procedures equally to all persons. Persons using these procedures to obtain vastly different results is not seen as being unjust. For example, a college admissions system may be based on merit. High school seniors will be admitted to college if they achieve a certain grade point average and adequate scores on college admissions tests. Those who do not meet the standards are not admitted. Though this system differentiates between people, it is procedurally just because it applies what are believed to be appropriate standards equally to all persons.

Communitarian Theory (here's where most of you pinkos live)

This perspective emphasizes the positive role that government plays in the lives of its people. This view asserts that individuals are not completely independent, but rather, have an inherent need for association with their fellows in the political community. Whereas the individualist-libertarian approach assumes that people can choose and develop on their own, the communitarian approach contends that people need the community and its values to nurture their development and enable them to make proper choices. Under this view, democratic government exists not only to recognize and protect individual rights and to satisfy personal interests, but also to bring individuals together into a political community to solve public problems. Politics is not a necessary evil to be limited in scope and function. Thus, communitarians recognize that the “public interest” creates responsibilities that may override the individual’s rights. Whenever a conflict occurs between individual rights and the public interest, the communitarian resolves the conflict on the side of the public interest. Thus, the political majority may sometimes need to impose certain values on individuals who find themselves in the minority. Communitarians take a substantive view of justice. Whereas the libertarian is satisfied with fair procedures as a measure of justice, the communitarian is more likely to look at the fairness of the results obtained. This view contends that vast inequalities among individuals are potentially damaging to society as a whole and supports the use of government power to achieve greater justice. In college admission systems for example, communitarian theory supports affirmative action on behalf of minorities to redress institutional inequalities. Thus a college may give admissions preference to minority group members in order to increase their numbers in higher education and obtain a just result for all elements in society, even though such action may discriminate against individuals who are not minorities.
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Old 11-09-2018, 07:44 AM   #41
Griff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post

if my bees die and the investigation shows it was cuz of his poison then, yeah, that harms 'me' cuz he's deprived me of my property.

So a claim of 'harm' has to be demonstrable, be physical...obviously.
Aren't your bees trespassing?
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Last edited by Griff; 11-09-2018 at 07:47 AM. Reason: changed to question
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:09 AM   #42
tw
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Aren't your bees trespassing?
His bees can trespass. Because he has the right to do anything he wants. His neighbor's bees cannot because he now uses laws to protect himself from any neighbor who exercised those same freedoms.

A double standard found in extremist rhetoric. He need not be responsible. His neighbor must.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:35 AM   #43
henry quirk
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"Aren't your bees trespassing?"

They might be. In the same way I don't want my neighbor's dog shittin' on my lawn, my neighbor might not want my bees flittin' through his airspace.

If he complains, and has merit in his complaint, I'm obliged to curb my bees.

#

tw,

Quoting Glinda: "fuck you".
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:33 AM   #44
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If he complains, and has merit in his complaint, I'm obliged to curb my bees.
If you look at it another way, most regulation is just agreeing on the complaint/merit beforehand.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:35 PM   #45
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Indeed. That was what I was trying to get at originally. And while it may be "beforehand" for future potential disputes, it was usually in direct response to past disputes.
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