Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me.... - Page 4

wolf · 07-09-2004, 12:58 PM

Yes, Jag. It must be tiresome to have to leave the villa and rub shoulders with the riff raff in the town below.

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 12:59 PM

You're right, I need to be more clear.

Think of it as a ratio thing. The number of good experiences to bad is a very poor ratio indeed.

When I come across any external projection of the US, may it be legal, political, military or trade, it's negative. When I come across Americans on the balance it tends to be negative, many I do get on with are varying degrees, embarassed by the state of affairs. I come across next to no good and a heck of a lot of bad. I look at what the biggest threats on the horizon are, DRM/Trusted Computing enforcement, large scale datamining and privicy invasion, further extensions of copyright and IP law to name but a few and they all are being pushed most heavily by the US. Who leads the world on the lawsuit mentality, what country has government supported faith based programs? Which western governmentis most blatantly influenced by big business? (Italy being a close second there) Hate might be a strong word but it's certainly correct a times, it simply has come to embody so many things I dislike. That's the crux.

Undertoad · 07-09-2004, 01:06 PM

Jag, of course the foreign policy of the 60s, 70s and 80s is different from the foreign policy of the 00s, but if anything it should serve as notice that things change. The US was reminded of that by finger-wagging French and Dartmouth professors who noted the US may not always be the super-power it is now. No, if trends continue as they are it will be a super-super-power, because US growth continues to outstrip Euro growth and the Japanese, Koreans, etc. are not far behind.

You'll have even more US tourists to deal with and by the way, one of the reasons they are what they are, is that our lower-middle classes are rich enough to travel halfway around the world on holidays. That's why the ugly American is the Euro stereotype, because during the 50s and 60s they all went to Paris on tours because they could afford to, and there were a LOT of them.

By the way, Americans include a lot of African-looking people and Mexican-looking people and Asian-looking people so don't forget them in the stereotypes. A huge number of us are non-white at this point (about a third or more) so you may not recognize us.

And by the way the number-one name for newborns in Amsterdam is "Mohammed" so you soon may not recognize Europeans either.

And there are only a quarter of the UKers than USers, but don't tell me a good number of them don't bellow for their Watney's and fish and chips in your presence.

wolf · 07-09-2004, 01:11 PM

I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.

I don't get those people, frankly. I've met and talked with a few. I still don't get them.

Beestie · 07-09-2004, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.

Bullseye.

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 01:29 PM

I really don't get your point UT. The growing ethnic diversity has bought both challanges and rewards everywhere, my old home, Australia, is incredibly multicultural, Melbourne has one of the biggest expat greek communities in the world, mixed in with huge Italian, Vietnamese, Chinese communities to boot. Hell the UK has a very high rate as well leading to the most excellent curry you ever will taste.

That said, beyond a bit of 'my country is better than your country so there', I still don't get your point.

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 01:30 PM

Well if you don't like a perspective you're unlikely to have the easiest of relationships with it's proponants are you?

Undertoad · 07-09-2004, 01:38 PM

My point is I love you like a brother, man, don't ever change.

(Just so we're clear on this)

ladysycamore · 07-09-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman

The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.

Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn what the world thinks of the US anymore. People will think what they want, can't stop them. Situations closer to home are worth worrying about, IMO. Amazing when things get put into their proper perspective, how most things become...petty and worthless to even think about.

Quote:

It fills me with sadness that in 2004 this kind of attitude still exists, and dominates. We all want the same things - to live, to eat, drink and sleep comfortably. Why can't we all just get on with it, and leave puny politics, greed and creative killings out of it?

Two words: Pandora's Box.

wolf · 07-09-2004, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman

The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.

Owning, liking, enjoying, and carrying firearms for personal defense <> "trigger happy."

I haven't shot anybody at this point. Neither have the majority of legal firearms owners in this country.

lookout123 · 07-09-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

Such detailed replies, pointing out how obviously wrong I am such as lookout has done certainly help. They demonstrate a fair and balanced populous concerned about their world image. Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit.

mmm, yer mom too. Jag - i don't really give a damn what you think of america, americans, or me in particular. i feel no urge to defend my nation, which i am proud of, to you or anyone. there is no point, you are a poisoned well. anything positive i could point out about us, you would fire off a "yeah, but what about..." and i just don't give enough of a shit about you.
as far as i can tell you are just a miserable individual looking for someone to blame everything on, so go right ahead, blame the ills of the world on america, we can take it, we always do, and we will still be the first to send rescue crews when a tragedy strikes somewhere in the world, we'll still send our financial aid packages out and we'll still offer what we have to those in need. but don't worry about that, you couldn't possibly have the time, what with picking our faults apart(which we have plenty of), and all.

- as far as your comment about french peacekeepers being in africa - please, i've worked with the french military. i would rather go to war with a battalion of Jehovah's Witnesses than the french military.

- last thought, do you move around so much because you get bored quickly or do people ask you to leave because they are tired of you always pissing on their shoes?

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 02:42 PM

I think catwoman meant in terms of foreign policy, not firearms ownership. For the record I have no problem with US firearms ownership.

Lookout, there are any positice points to the US but the sheer number, range and imact of the negatives simply outweight them from here. I spend a lot of time dealing with things that most people don't have to and a lot more time looking and who is pushing what, it's probably why I'm more annoyed. What any of this has to do with france is beyond me. I move around for various reasons, at the moment it's a mix of business and uni that keeps me shuffling around but usually it's just a love of travel. I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.

lookout123 · 07-09-2004, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

What any of this has to do with france is beyond me...

... I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.

eh, yer mom wears combat boots. and you are the one who brought france into it. you mentioned that they had peacekeepers in africa.

petty personal attacks? just because i single you out and direct my comments at you they are petty? interesting because when you throw out ridiculous broad brush insults on americans its just well-informed debate. strange.

you have yourself on such a pedastal it is laughable.

07-09-2004, 04:19 PM

I consider Switzerland to be my "second country" since my Mom is Swiss, and I am very proud of my Swiss heritage. So here's the answer to what good has one of Jag's countries done for anyone lately.

Switzerland was one of the earliest democracies. It was formed in 1291 when three cantons - Schwyz, Uri and Unterwalden - joined together to protect their borders. That beats the US by almost 500 years. Switzerland has also already had three women who filled the highest governmental office of that country, equivalent to our president. The US has yet to elect a woman as president, as we all know.

The Swiss were formidable fighters. Any Latin student who labored through Ceasar's Commentaries will have spent some time reading about the Swiss, or Helvetians. One of Ceasar's statements: "The Helvetians, because of their geographic situation, are hemmed in on all sides... They do not consider the extent of their territory sufficient either ... for their military prowess, or for their reputation for courage." The Swiss continued as formidable fighters throughout the Middle Ages. Many other kingdoms and powers hired Swiss soldiers because they were best in all Europe. Swiss mercenaries continued to serve in other armies for centuries to come and earned an unrivalled reputation for their skill and courage. Swiss soldiers fought to the last man defending the King of France in the French Revolution. Even today the Pope is protected by the Swiss Guard.

Interesting enough, it was the Swiss who founded the Red Cross in Geneva in 1863. The symbol for the Red Cross is the inverse of the Swiss national flag. Three Swiss have been recipients of the Nobel Peace prize, and at least 22 others have won Nobel prizes, mostly in the area of the sciences. This is a stunning achievement for a country of only about 6 million people.

Some famous Swiss: Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Hermen Hesse, Jean-Paul Marat, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, and Paul Klee, to name only a few.

There has been much criticism of Swiss actions in WWII, and some of it is indeed deserved, but people need to keep in mind that Switzerland was surrounded on all sides by Hitler's armies and in order to help preserve its neutrality, the country was forced to make some unpaletable concessions. Despite this fact, Switzerland permanently sheltered 60,000 civilian refugees (0.85 % of the 1990 population) and 60,000 soldiers, most of them allied troops (amounting to a total of 1.7 % of the 1990 population). The US itself repeated turned away Jewish refugees and accomodated only some 250,000 Jewish refugees from 1939 to 1945 (0.1 % of the 1990 population), and, therefore, has no right to throw stones.

Given the fact that Switzerland is a small land-locked country with a small population in comparison with other Western countries, its current prosperity and the contributions its people have made to Western civilization is nothing short of stunning. We Americans are soooooo ignorant of other nations.

attachment: "The Dying Lion; Swiss memorial to its soldiers who fell defending the King of France.

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 04:36 PM

I think I've clarified my comments enough to make my point clear enough. On the flipside. I didn't drag france into this, someone, probably you brought it up for some reason, I retorted.

Your comments are petty personal attacks because of their nature, attacking my lifestyle and random odd claims about my disposition that have nothing to do with what's at hand. Maybe I should have used ad homium but latin is a dignified language and your comments are indeed very petty. If you care to point out the part where I said 'every single american is X' I would be glad, I could have sworn I described a European perspective on America and why. Obviously I've also listed a range of personal views, most of which were to do with the country as a whole rather than it's constitutions. If I'm on such a pedestal I'd love you to point out why and try and get me off.

So far you've shown a heck of a lot of indignation, a penchant for personal attacks and about as much substance as aerogel. Give me a shot, point out where I'm wrong on my points and what I'm missing that's so wonderful, I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.Hell check my early posts about firearms here if you have trouble believing that. Might require a little more than average-verses-GPD claims about foreign aid though. Of course it's much easier to squark random insults than make a durable point so I won't hold my breath.

07-09-2004, 12:58 PM	#46
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Yes, Jag. It must be tiresome to have to leave the villa and rub shoulders with the riff raff in the town below. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-09-2004, 12:59 PM	#47
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	You're right, I need to be more clear. Think of it as a ratio thing. The number of good experiences to bad is a very poor ratio indeed. When I come across any external projection of the US, may it be legal, political, military or trade, it's negative. When I come across Americans on the balance it tends to be negative, many I do get on with are varying degrees, embarassed by the state of affairs. I come across next to no good and a heck of a lot of bad. I look at what the biggest threats on the horizon are, DRM/Trusted Computing enforcement, large scale datamining and privicy invasion, further extensions of copyright and IP law to name but a few and they all are being pushed most heavily by the US. Who leads the world on the lawsuit mentality, what country has government supported faith based programs? Which western governmentis most blatantly influenced by big business? (Italy being a close second there) Hate might be a strong word but it's certainly correct a times, it simply has come to embody so many things I dislike. That's the crux. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-09-2004, 01:11 PM	#49
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American. I don't get those people, frankly. I've met and talked with a few. I still don't get them. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-09-2004, 01:29 PM	#51
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I really don't get your point UT. The growing ethnic diversity has bought both challanges and rewards everywhere, my old home, Australia, is incredibly multicultural, Melbourne has one of the biggest expat greek communities in the world, mixed in with huge Italian, Vietnamese, Chinese communities to boot. Hell the UK has a very high rate as well leading to the most excellent curry you ever will taste. That said, beyond a bit of 'my country is better than your country so there', I still don't get your point. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-09-2004, 01:30 PM	#52
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Well if you don't like a perspective you're unlikely to have the easiest of relationships with it's proponants are you? __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-09-2004, 01:06 PM	#48
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Jag, of course the foreign policy of the 60s, 70s and 80s is different from the foreign policy of the 00s, but if anything it should serve as notice that things change. The US was reminded of that by finger-wagging French and Dartmouth professors who noted the US may not always be the super-power it is now. No, if trends continue as they are it will be a super-super-power, because US growth continues to outstrip Euro growth and the Japanese, Koreans, etc. are not far behind. You'll have even more US tourists to deal with and by the way, one of the reasons they are what they are, is that our lower-middle classes are rich enough to travel halfway around the world on holidays. That's why the ugly American is the Euro stereotype, because during the 50s and 60s they all went to Paris on tours because they could afford to, and there were a LOT of them. By the way, Americans include a lot of African-looking people and Mexican-looking people and Asian-looking people so don't forget them in the stereotypes. A huge number of us are non-white at this point (about a third or more) so you may not recognize us. And by the way the number-one name for newborns in Amsterdam is "Mohammed" so you soon may not recognize Europeans either. And there are only a quarter of the UKers than USers, but don't tell me a good number of them don't bellow for their Watney's and fish and chips in your presence.

07-09-2004, 01:38 PM	#53
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	My point is I love you like a brother, man, don't ever change. (Just so we're clear on this)

07-09-2004, 02:42 PM	#57
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I think catwoman meant in terms of foreign policy, not firearms ownership. For the record I have no problem with US firearms ownership. Lookout, there are any positice points to the US but the sheer number, range and imact of the negatives simply outweight them from here. I spend a lot of time dealing with things that most people don't have to and a lot more time looking and who is pushing what, it's probably why I'm more annoyed. What any of this has to do with france is beyond me. I move around for various reasons, at the moment it's a mix of business and uni that keeps me shuffling around but usually it's just a love of travel. I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 07-09-2004 at 02:44 PM.

07-09-2004, 04:19 PM	#59
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I consider Switzerland to be my "second country" since my Mom is Swiss, and I am very proud of my Swiss heritage. So here's the answer to what good has one of Jag's countries done for anyone lately. Switzerland was one of the earliest democracies. It was formed in 1291 when three cantons - Schwyz, Uri and Unterwalden - joined together to protect their borders. That beats the US by almost 500 years. Switzerland has also already had three women who filled the highest governmental office of that country, equivalent to our president. The US has yet to elect a woman as president, as we all know. The Swiss were formidable fighters. Any Latin student who labored through Ceasar's Commentaries will have spent some time reading about the Swiss, or Helvetians. One of Ceasar's statements: "The Helvetians, because of their geographic situation, are hemmed in on all sides... They do not consider the extent of their territory sufficient either ... for their military prowess, or for their reputation for courage." The Swiss continued as formidable fighters throughout the Middle Ages. Many other kingdoms and powers hired Swiss soldiers because they were best in all Europe. Swiss mercenaries continued to serve in other armies for centuries to come and earned an unrivalled reputation for their skill and courage. Swiss soldiers fought to the last man defending the King of France in the French Revolution. Even today the Pope is protected by the Swiss Guard. Interesting enough, it was the Swiss who founded the Red Cross in Geneva in 1863. The symbol for the Red Cross is the inverse of the Swiss national flag. Three Swiss have been recipients of the Nobel Peace prize, and at least 22 others have won Nobel prizes, mostly in the area of the sciences. This is a stunning achievement for a country of only about 6 million people. Some famous Swiss: Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Hermen Hesse, Jean-Paul Marat, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, and Paul Klee, to name only a few. There has been much criticism of Swiss actions in WWII, and some of it is indeed deserved, but people need to keep in mind that Switzerland was surrounded on all sides by Hitler's armies and in order to help preserve its neutrality, the country was forced to make some unpaletable concessions. Despite this fact, Switzerland permanently sheltered 60,000 civilian refugees (0.85 % of the 1990 population) and 60,000 soldiers, most of them allied troops (amounting to a total of 1.7 % of the 1990 population). The US itself repeated turned away Jewish refugees and accomodated only some 250,000 Jewish refugees from 1939 to 1945 (0.1 % of the 1990 population), and, therefore, has no right to throw stones. Given the fact that Switzerland is a small land-locked country with a small population in comparison with other Western countries, its current prosperity and the contributions its people have made to Western civilization is nothing short of stunning. We Americans are soooooo ignorant of other nations. attachment: "The Dying Lion; Swiss memorial to its soldiers who fell defending the King of France. Attached Images

07-09-2004, 04:36 PM	#60
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I think I've clarified my comments enough to make my point clear enough. On the flipside. I didn't drag france into this, someone, probably you brought it up for some reason, I retorted. Your comments are petty personal attacks because of their nature, attacking my lifestyle and random odd claims about my disposition that have nothing to do with what's at hand. Maybe I should have used ad homium but latin is a dignified language and your comments are indeed very petty. If you care to point out the part where I said 'every single american is X' I would be glad, I could have sworn I described a European perspective on America and why. Obviously I've also listed a range of personal views, most of which were to do with the country as a whole rather than it's constitutions. If I'm on such a pedestal I'd love you to point out why and try and get me off. So far you've shown a heck of a lot of indignation, a penchant for personal attacks and about as much substance as aerogel. Give me a shot, point out where I'm wrong on my points and what I'm missing that's so wonderful, I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.Hell check my early posts about firearms here if you have trouble believing that. Might require a little more than average-verses-GPD claims about foreign aid though. Of course it's much easier to squark random insults than make a durable point so I won't hold my breath. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 07-09-2004 at 04:42 PM.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode