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View Poll Results: Where are you?
God plays an active role in my life 12 25.00%
God merely watches from a distance 10 20.83%
I want to believe, but have found no evidence of God 10 20.83%
There is no God 12 25.00%
Only fools could believe in God 4 8.33%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-17-2005, 02:09 PM   #1
lookout123
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God? Faith?

OK, faith or religion has become a conflict point in several threads recently so maybe it's time for a poll. No need to comment, unless you feel led.
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Old 02-17-2005, 02:28 PM   #2
LabRat
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Where's the 'I believe in something bigger than us, but I don't know what it is' choice?
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Old 02-17-2005, 02:30 PM   #3
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sorry, labrat. i guess i would just lump that in with "i want to believe in God, but see no evidence". i don't know what "something bigger than us" would be, other than a god. please feel free to comment to clarify what you mean though.
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Old 02-17-2005, 02:43 PM   #4
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The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no God, but since I was raised to believe in God, I have a difficult time coming right out and saying what is almost certainly true. Call me superstitious, but I don't feel comfortable coming right out and saying it. After watching Candyman the movie, I also had a hard time looking into a mirror and saying "Candyman" three times. I have also knocked on wood before too. I put all of these things in the same category, with denying God a little higher up on the taboo list than the others. Maybe that makes me a wimp because I lack convictions.

Now that I'm a dad, I've had to decide whether to raise my kids in any organized religion. My wife has stronger faith than me (which is not very hard) and we are taking the kids to church every week. The kids like church, and the message they get there is basically a good one, so I play along. I'm even somewhat involved in church, which is funny given my lack of faith. I help set up for special ceremonies, am helping to renovate some rooms, have done some readings, etc.

The way I figure it, I live the life of a good christian: I mean, I vote Democrat, I help the poor, I'm nice, I go to church. If God does exists, he should give me a break for being a good guy. If he doesn't (exist), well then it doesn't matter, does it?

I voted for "I want to believe, but have found no evidence of God " even though I have no special desire to believe anything.

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Old 02-17-2005, 02:48 PM   #5
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she means agnostic - there's something out there, don't know what.
or by the dictionary:
Quote:
someone who does not know, or believes that it is impossible to know, whether a god exists
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Old 02-17-2005, 02:56 PM   #6
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I am struggling over this. I am leaning towards No God(s) and feeling mightily bummed out. I think the evidence tends towards a totally random, rather hostile universe. I feel totally shitty and things are really sucking. I hate this. I hate these periods of anxiety that plague me every few months. They SUCK. Plus, they erode what little faith I had. Little by little the anxiety chips away at what progress was made previously and I'm left right back at square one. Totally fucking sucks.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:02 PM   #7
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I was forced to choose "Only a fool..." simply because there is no evidence for the existence of deity, but I am also not of the opinion that there is no god because there is just as much evidence for that as well.

I'm in the "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" camp.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:16 PM   #8
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I do. Feel led.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookout123
OK, faith or religion has become a conflict point in several threads recently so maybe it's time for a poll. No need to comment, unless you feel led.
Thanks for the poll, I'm eager to see the results accumulate but even more interested in the comments that may be posted.

Faith is, by definition, belief in something not seen. Hebrew 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, of things not seen." I can perceive evidence of that "God plays an active role in my life" much in the same way that I can tell the sun is in the sky without looking directly at it. Some level of evidence is enough for each person, and it certainly varies widely, and I have reached mine. The distance between evidence and truth is filled with faith.

One short story as an example. I was out of work and really stressing about everything that accompanies that situation. I was sitting in my car outside an office just before an interview, collecting myself for this very important, high stakes meeting. I said a simple prayer asking for God's help. As I looked up, my eyes focused on the billboard across the street. This is what I saw: "You are not alone." It was an ad for an adoption center, I think. I'm sure it was a clear communication to me that He was with me. I was greatly reassured, and entered the interview confidently. Two years later, I'm still on the job, the best job I've ever had.

God exists. He's with me (and you) all the time. What varies is my confidence, my faith, my ability to perceive. Science is the study of what can be reasonably inferred from repeatable experimentation. Faith is not subject to that kind of rigor. It's not defined to be.

Science is a useful, elegant way to discover the nature of the question "How?" Faith is equally useful and elegant for the explanation of the question "Why?"
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:16 PM   #9
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I believe, have faith in, some sort of spiritual order or energetic force, but its form is not that of "a god" as described by the organized religions I've encountered, although they may start to proximate it. Not sure where that lands.

I dont feel this spiritual force as a "father" or "shepherd" or "savior"
maybe closer is "life (including death)" or "compassion".
It doesnt fit well into group worship. It doesnt lend itself to group governance. its not always easy or conforting. Its challenging and rather than delineating and choosing, its base is in a connectedness that is not comprehendable.

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Old 02-17-2005, 03:24 PM   #10
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To those in the "wanting to believe, but can't"

I invite you to join me in a conversation about this stance. I will not prosletyze. I am very familiar with this position, since I recently spent all my time there, and still visit it regularly.

I am willing to lend my ears and my time. If it is mutually acceptable, I would be willing to lend my words and thoughts as well.

The door's open.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:44 PM   #11
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Yeah, what Warch and Jaguar said is what I meant. I actually am currently struggling with whether or not I should start taking my 2 yr old to church or not. It did me 'good' learning the golden rule etc., and now like Glatt I live a "good Christian life" in general partly because of lessons learned young. So far tho, I have decided not to because I feel that she will emulate me and learn what I teach her by my actions (being a 'good person, sharing, not stealing, helping those in need, being honest with others) even without going to church, and by going when I don't truly believe, I am actually teaching her hypocracy and not honesty. I HATE hypocrites (sp) more than just about anything. Occasionally I actually envy those who wholehartedly believe in their faith, and wonder why I am broken for questioning things. I interpret BigV's story as coincidence that he looked at that particular billboard at that time. Ever notice that when someone mentions something, that's all you see for awhile? Like the ribbon thread. After reading that, all I saw were cars with those stupid magnetic ribbons. Should I take that as a sign that I should go out and buy one? I think, no. Because the human mind is SO suceptible to the power of suggestion, I just noticed things I previously was ignoring but were still there before I noticed them. I hope I am making sense. What if BigV happened to look at his gas gauge instead and noticed it was on E, and took that as a sign instead he was at the end of the line? Or reinterpreted the 'you are not alone' to mean 'there are four people trying for this job, and they're all just as qualified as you? I would give the reasoning that he saw what he saw and interpreted it the way he did because he was looking for SOMEONE to tell him, "it's going to be OK, give it your best shot". Because he is Christian, he believed it was God/Jesus whoever encouraging him. (Not that that is a bad thing!) I think, eh- coincidence.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:57 PM   #12
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I thought BigV's story was a coincidence too, but wasn't going to say anything, because who am I to chip away at someone else's faith? People with faith are genuinely happy to have it.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:59 PM   #13
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Look for proof of God, and you will find it.

Look for proof that hamsters are the supreme species on earth, and you will find it.
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Old 02-17-2005, 04:11 PM   #14
lookout123
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A) You certainly do not need to take your child to church for her to grow into a "good person". you are her teacher and guidance counselor in life. there are many kind, good people who hold no religious belief whatsoever. there are many deeply religious people who act in a cruel and deceitful manner.

B) Only BigV can speak to his experience. He could have very easily reached one of the conclusions you proposed, but he didn't. coincidence? maybe. or he saw what he needed to see at a very fragile crossroads in life. is it miraculous? i don't know about that, but it seems to have been a very important event for him.

C) You are definitely not broken because you question things. In fact, if you didn't i don't believe that would be a good thing. I hold my faith very close to me - i also frequently have doubts and questions. in my view, the depth of my faith is in a state of constant flutctuation, not because of God's changing presence, but because of my receptiveness.

D) Sometimes I see Faith as very similar to Love. I believe they are actions, verbs, decisions. I love my wife very deeply - but this is real life. The "warm fuzzy" love is only there occassionally. But i wake up every morning and make a conscious decision to love my wife. it is a process, a choice more than a feeling. I think it is amusing that many people think that to have a strong Christian faith one must have blind dedication. I have had many struggles with my faith over the years, but my faith has generally come through the other side stronger in some way. Faith is first a choice to believe in something bigger than ourselves, something that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of many. That, in a way, makes it that much stronger. It takes no personal investment to believe in something that is easily verified with one's eyes. Gravity is real. I can drop an apple and see it fall 10 out of 10 times. I have no real feelings for gravity.
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Old 02-17-2005, 04:56 PM   #15
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yet more detail

Quote:
Originally Posted by LabRat
Yeah, what Warch and Jaguar said is what I meant.
–snip—
Occasionally I actually envy those who wholehartedly believe in their faith, and wonder why I am broken for questioning things. I interpret BigV's story as coincidence that he looked at that particular billboard at that time. Ever notice that when someone mentions something, that's all you see for awhile? Like the ribbon thread. After reading that, all I saw were cars with those stupid magnetic ribbons. Should I take that as a sign that I should go out and buy one? I think, no. Because the human mind is SO suceptible to the power of suggestion, I just noticed things I previously was ignoring but were still there before I noticed them. I hope I am making sense. What if BigV happened to look at his gas gauge instead and noticed it was on E, and took that as a sign instead he was at the end of the line? Or reinterpreted the 'you are not alone' to mean 'there are four people trying for this job, and they're all just as qualified as you? I would give the reasoning that he saw what he saw and interpreted it the way he did because he was looking for SOMEONE to tell him, "it's going to be OK, give it your best shot". Because he is Christian, he believed it was God/Jesus whoever encouraging him. (Not that that is a bad thing!) I think, eh- coincidence.
LB: Your observations are right on target. I agree with you about the suggestability of the human mind, and mine in particular. Let me clear up an important detail first, please.

Faith is a choice to believe in the absence of evidence.

I have faith in God, not because I worked it out to 10 decimal places, but because I have chosen to. It’s a provisional conclusion, since my faith is tested often. I don’t mean I’m out in the desert with the devil for a month, but I often, no, constantly try to reconcile what I believe with what I experience. Sometimes the evidence at hand does not match my estimation of what it should be. Some things that are especially hard to jive are the suffering of innocents, or, hey MY suffering. Why, God, why? Or the sheer inscrutability of His communication with me. A burning bush? Come on, just say it.

I’m not being funny, these are real questions of mine. As I reflect on circumstances like these, I usually have the most satisfying results when I slow down, calm down, and enlarge the scope of what’s involved. There’s not always a reason for what happens. Let me expand that a little—not always a reason I understand, or not always a reason that can be traced back to “God’s will”. For example, I do not believe that the tragedy of the recent tsunami is “God’s judgment”. Nor do I understand why I give all my pocket change to the guy on the corner with the cardboard sign (or why I feel convicted with I don’t).

When I do open myself to more inputs and observations, a few points come up again and again that help settle me. One, God knows more than I do (duh). I mean, when the kids were small, and I took away something from them that they wanted but was harmful for them, they wailed but I persisted. I can hear them now “But WHY!!??” Sometimes I could reason with them to a point, sometimes not. I don’t always have the whole story, but so far, it’s always worked out in my favor. I mean, I’m still here, ain’t I?

Suffering is not always bad. Ooh. Tough one. I can’t always get this one settled, but usually the suffering is a result of the difference between my expectations and my realities. It’s uncomfortable but true that both sides of that equations can be moved toward meeting somewhere in the middle. And another thing, sometimes, I bring the suffering on myself. I still manage to be surprised and pissed off sometimes, but I shouldn’t be.

I leave room for myself to live peaceably with some uncertainty. Hey, I know lots of things now that were once perfectly opaque mysteries to me. Just because I don’t know everything about how something works really doesn’t impinge on the truth. Sometimes it’s true and I’m ignorant (understatement of the century).

I remember similar situations in the past and how they were resolved. There’s something of a positive feedback cycle at work here, for sure. But this is not a cop-out. I don’t re-figure out how to tie my shoes every day, or re-learn how to get to work or re-evaluate if my family is worthy of my love,—I re-member. If I switch from laces to Velcro, time to reconsider. If I get a new job, it’s time to remap my commute. If I come home and my clothes are flung over the lawn and the locks are changed, I better regroup. In the meantime, the working hypothesis is in place and functioning.

Let me give you an example: Money. Faith in money is no different. A Dollar? A piece of paper. Seriously. But I trust it, have faith in it. Heck, that’s the doggone definition of money. We all share the idea that the dollar can be exchanged uniformly for some service or product. But without that faith in that intangible idea, the money is worthless. Faith in God is like that for me. It’s a decision. I have listened to people who’s opinion I trust and value, I’ve read what I can, I listened and learned what I could and I have concluded that it’s true. God exists (and a bunch more…). Science, or a reasonable facsimile of the scientific method, test, evaluate, verify, led me here, but it is Faith, not Science that brought me this last step.
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