2/25 Extra: Israelis, Palestinians, Death

Excuse the slow load time. My ISP capped our asses after that towboat fiasco. Anyway, here's a nice picture from MSNBC. I didn't post it Friday because I don't think any of us want to end the week on that. Here we go for Monday though...



That would be 3 Israeli soldiers taking macho pictures over the body of a now-dead Palestinian gunman. I don't have details on whether or not they're the ones that killed him. It hardly matters.

While I do not, at all, support the Palestinian intifada's violence and I find it difficult to sympathize with people who target civilians for their suicide bombings and shootings, this is a bit much. No one wins in any of these situations - not Palestinians, not Israelis, nobody. Israeli victims are injured and possibly dead, this man is dead, and now we have Israeli soldiers taking pictures over his body. For what? To show their family later?

This is hardly any less disgusting than the murder of Daniel Pearl, and only somewhat because of the fact that while Daniel Pearl was a journalist, this man was gunning for civilians. Regardless, those soldiers have nothing to be proud of in taking and posing for those pictures.

Peace in the middle east is laughable because of the deep hatred. Each side rejoices in the other's death. Why stop doing what makes you happy?

[BruteForce]

I really don't think any of us should be judging the mental state of anyone over there. They are in a state of war and have been so for years. Living in fear 24/7 does strange things to the human psyche.

The same should then be said about the Nazis, I guess. I mean, geez. It's okay that they killed a couple million people 'cause the '38 Volkswagen cost 300 Trillion Deutschmarks.

Whatever. Taking joy or pride in the death of another is reprehensible. It is human nature to mourn the death of a fellow human being, especially one with whom we have some type of contact. If, out of those three soldiers, one had been killed by the gunman and then his body displayed for pictures of joyous Palestinians, the other two soldiers would be furious and would, no doubt, have thoughts of "how dare they show joy at the death of another." It's human nature.

I'm not saying that the Palestinian that got killed didn't have it coming - when you open fire on civilians in Israel, you die. Period. But that doesn't make the death a happy affair. You wouldn't excuse the Palestinians dancing after the 9/11 attacks, so why excuse this?

[BruteForce]

I, for one, will celebrate my ass off when osama bin laden is dead.

Guess what? That guy at the soldiers feet (and every other potential terrorist) is osama to the Israelis.

[sleemanj]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

I'm not saying that the Palestinian that got killed didn't have it coming - when you open fire on civilians in Israel, you die. Period

Problem is, generally, so do a bunch of innocent Palestinians when Israel retaliates by rolling in tanks, or missiles, or some other lethal weapon of destruction.

If the Israel would just give the palestinians back some land to truely call thier own, let them go to thier holy places unhindered, and get the western world's ass out'o there things might just cool down a bit.

Here's a good run down on what the whole conflict is about for anybody who's not sure.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...Background.asp

I like this quote the article above gives from an Australian news paper...

"For ordinary Palestinians, self-rule has been a humiliating disaster. Seven years after Oslo, they are still living under occupation. The basic means of a decent human existence, which acknowledges their distinctive culture, history and suffering, is denied to them. When not completely withheld, their basic rights and entitlements are represented as concessions generously granted by their overlords. Meanwhile their leaders, frightened of losing their elite privileges and affluent lifestyles, collude with Israel in their betrayal." -- This peace offer is an insult to Palestinians, by Scott Burchill, The Australian (daily newspaper of Australia), October 12, 2000

...and if Palestinians would stop blowing up innocent Israeli civilians, maybe Israel would make some of those concessions?

Vicious Circle. And it's really neither here nor there. The point is that the hatred runs so deep that there will probably never be true "peace" there. If Israel makes some concessions, wahoo. It will not stop the hatred. It will not stop the suicide bombings. Hamas opposes a Jewish state, period. They are large. They are well funded. Even if all of the civilians, on both sides, were just hunky dory with one another, Palestinian terror groups would ruin it. I promise.

[sleemanj]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
...and if Palestinians would stop blowing up innocent Israeli civilians, maybe Israel would make some of those concessions?

Vicious Circle. And it's really neither here nor there. The point is that the hatred runs so deep that there will probably never be true "peace" there. If Israel makes some concessions, wahoo. It will not stop the hatred. It will not stop the suicide bombings. Hamas opposes a Jewish state, period. They are large. They are well funded. Even if all of the civilians, on both sides, were just hunky dory with one another, Palestinian terror groups would ruin it. I promise.

The Palestinians were effectivly evicted from thier homeland by the creation of the Jewish state - the minority of the people took the majority of the land. They have good reason to be angry and to want thier home back again. Israel is not asked to make concessions - they are asked to give back what is not thiers, or more importantly, to share what they have with those that they (more or less) took it from in a fair an equitable way.

Let's not forget, Palestinians HAVE NO COUNTRY any more. They used to, and it was taken from them.

In New Zealand, there is a similar land issue with the government and the various Maori tribal groups. Basically, settlers took the Maori's land without making the terms of the taking clear. Now the government, and the people's of New Zealand are having to share the land of New Zealand with the tribes - not make a concession, but share the land in a fair and equitable way.

Of course, the only real solution is for all people to shun religion and become atheists (like me :-)). At the heart of all evil, of all hate, of all war is religion in one of it's many guises.

Don't mind me, I'm in an argumentative mood, and thier isn't much on at work :-)

[Bitman]

<flip flop>
It's starting to seem like the US fosters instability over there just to keep the oil flowing, cuz if they were stable, they might charge more.

<flip flop>
Then they might start withholding oil to gain influence over other governments. So, um, would that be good or bad? I'm confused now...

-B

[BruteForce]

Yes, that's right. The U.S. is entirely responsible for fighting that's been happening for ages. The middle east is really full of peace loving people that we antagonize into war so we can drive our gas guzzling buicks where ever we please.

[/sarcasm]

[Torrere]

Entirely responsible? No.

More along the lines of dumping fuel on the fire in ridiculous quantities.

According to sleemanj's link, the US has vetoed many resolutions that are critical of Israel in the UN Security Council. A good deal of the world community is critical of Israel, but the US seems to be of the opinion that they can do no wrong.

The US does this in part because US public opinion is very slanted, most of our sources tell only the Israeli side. Our papers rarely if ever talk about Palestinian dead or suffering, just the latest terrorist attack committed against the Israelis. Maybe as an afterthought they'll add that the Israeli government has retaliated with a helicopter attack.

Of course, there's the staggering amount of funding that the US pumps into Israel every year. We may not be entirely responsible, but we don't seem to be taking any action to make anything better; only worse.

[BruteForce]

Do you really believe that Israel would still be there if it wasn't for US funding? We are essentially the only ones in the world that gives them any support. I know they are not perfect, but get your asses kicked for a couple of thousand years and these kind of things happen (not to mention having 6 million murdered in WWII).

Btw, I really like what I'm hearing in the news about the Saudi proposed peace deal. This sounds like it might just work, so maybe we can have peace in the mideast during our lifetime. And because it's an arab proposed deal, it gives it that much more legitamacy.

[quzah]

No way, no how. There will never be peace in the middle east and it's all because of religion. My way is right, your way is wrong. This is the failing of all religions. (With the possible exception of Buddahism(sp), which has never had a war fought in its name.)

The problem with people is they just don't leave eachother alone. You go your way, I'll go mine, and we'll both be the better for it.

Another major problem with the middle east, is the fact that America keeps interfering. There used to be a time when countries and kingdoms went to war and annexed eachother, overthrew eachother, etc, and that was all fine and good. That's the way it's supposed to be. Survival of the fittest and all that. All America is doing is delaying the inevitiable. Get the hell out and let them all finish it so we can get on with the rest of the world.

Quzah.

[Torrere]

I don't know if the state of Israel would have survived without US funding. I do know that if it had, it would be radically different. Maybe they would have an incentive to be at peace.

Should the state of Israel be there? Sure, the Jews were driven out by the Romans a few thousand years ago, but did that make it right to drive out seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians from their traditional home? Does having a few thousand years of history to complain about mean that you can shove other people around? Was it just for the Puritans to drive the Native Americans out of their territory just because they'd faced persecution in England?

---
Quzah: Recent history probably has more to do with it than religion - I think religion is the means of persuading a people to go to war, than the actual cause (I cite "God Bless America").

I think that it definitely wouldn't be such an acute problem if the US wasn't funding Israel. Without all the US money, they might have incentive to seek peace (I don't think the Israeli leaders want to seek peace right now. If they keep fighting they might get more money from the US and more territory from the Palestinians). Even if they didn't seek peace, they'd have less funding for their retaliation, and their soldiers might face more risk.

Of course, they might be showing a more civilized face (tear gas and rubber bullets) now than they would if the US were to withdraw support.

[BruteForce]

Originally posted by Torrere
I haven't heard about the Saudi proposed deal yet. Why do you think it has more legitimacy?

Mainly because it has been proposed by an arab nation. What's so incredible about it, is that it's so simple. Israel moves out of Palestinian territory (occupied many years ago) and in turn, all arab countries acknowledge the legitimacy of an Israel state. Amazing huh? While listening to an interview on NPR earlier, one guy said the deal has become so popular simply because both sides have become desperate for a solution and things can only get exponentially worse from here.

[Bitman]

Originally posted by quzah
The problem with people is they just don't leave each other alone. You go your way, I'll go mine, and we'll both be the better for it.

That's meaningless here .. There's no room left over there. To create Israel, they had to push 3 other countries out of the way. The only real "solution" would be to move Israel elsewhere, and give back that land. That ain't gonna happen, plus Israel's not gonna give up their land, plus the Palestinians aren't going to stop demanding their land back. Ick.

Edit: I just read that last post. Is that really the peace accord? That's (what I thought was) the whole problem .. would they really agree to that? Amazing.

-B