Bin Laden's letter to America.

Jennifer · 11-24-2002, 06:25 PM

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

If this is legitimate, it's very interesting.

MaggieL · 11-24-2002, 08:04 PM

It's interesting in any case; probably the most articulate setting forward of Jihadist thinking so far. *So* articulate that I suspect it's originally written in English by British Jihadists, rather than written in Arabic and translated to English.

I'll be watching to see if anybody besides the Guardian thinks it is actually what it purports to be.

jaguar · 11-24-2002, 10:55 PM

Either way it's interesting, i doubt the Guardian would go to print without some solid evidence.

elSicomoro · 11-24-2002, 11:12 PM

I think they would...and I happen to like the Guardian. They're like the Washington Times of the left.

11-25-2002, 08:42 AM

bin Laden might have possibly laid down the idea, but there's no fucking way on God's Green Earth™ that he wrote every single bit of it. It simply makes use of too much good English to be a translation of his writing.

Nic Name · 11-25-2002, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

It simply makes use of too much good English to be a translation of his writing.

Are you suggesting that there are no translators in Britain who are fluent in both languages?

Quote:

As reported in the Guardian

The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Are you suggesting that bin Laden is inarticulate in the Arabic version?

Griff · 11-25-2002, 09:15 AM

Interesting how they used "(against disbelievers)" instead of against the infidel. Either way, you can't spin the hate.

Nic Name · 11-25-2002, 09:20 AM

in·fi·del

n.
An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam.
One who has no religious beliefs.
One who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle.

Isn't the idea of a translation to reflect the commonly understood language of the reader?

The Arabic word isn't infidel, it's a word in another language that means infidel or disbeliever. Take your pick.

It seems that folks view "authentic" as something that bin Laden would have written in English. How would he phrase it in English? What English words would he use? Well, it was written in Arabic and the translator is free to choose the proper literate, rather than literal, translation.

11-25-2002, 09:31 AM

No. What I'm saying is that I believe it's at the very least been embellished, and possibly created by English-speaking extremists (i.e., not bin Laden).

From what I have read and heard of bin Laden, this doesn't seem to fit the same mold. There generally are some words that always make it through - like Griff said, infidel being one of them.

I would have no trouble believing bin Laden laid the groundwork for it, but I personally think that it's been embellished.

You've now added that the translator is free to choose - and if that's the case, then hey, it's been embellished. Now it's no longer exactly what bin Laden said - it's been changed.

Look, you believe what you want. I'll be waiting for a literal translation of the original Arabic.

Nic Name · 11-25-2002, 09:32 AM

Quote:

THE TRANSLATED LETTER, about 4,000 words long, was originally posted in Arabic on a Saudi Arabian Web site previously used by al-Qaida to disseminate messages, The Observer reported Sunday. Within the last two weeks British Islamists have translated the letter, said to be the most comprehensive explanation of bin Laden’s ideology to be issued for several years, and posted it on English-language Web sites operated from the United Kingdom, the newspaper said.

The Saudis must be loving that.

Quote:

Although there is no way to confirm the authenticity of the letter beyond doubt, senior Arab journalists in the Middle Eastern media believe that the letter is from bin Laden — one calling the missive “an extraordinary glimpse into his mind.”

Full story

MaggieL · 11-25-2002, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Name
Are you suggesting that bin Laden is inarticulate in the Arabic version?

No, I'm pointing out that it is *extremely* difficult to preserve an articulate presentation when translating between languages, especially languages with substantial linguistic differences. One Romance language to another is an easier trip than say, Japanese or Arabic to English.

See Hofstadter's <i>Le Ton beau de Marot</i> for an exploration of this.

11-24-2002, 06:25 PM	#1
Jennifer Reasonable Person Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 5	Bin Laden's letter to America. Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' If this is legitimate, it's very interesting.

11-24-2002, 08:04 PM	#2
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	It's interesting in any case; probably the most articulate setting forward of Jihadist thinking so far. So articulate that I suspect it's originally written in English by British Jihadists, rather than written in Arabic and translated to English. I'll be watching to see if anybody besides the Guardian thinks it is actually what it purports to be. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

11-24-2002, 10:55 PM	#3
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Either way it's interesting, i doubt the Guardian would go to print without some solid evidence. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

11-25-2002, 09:15 AM	#7
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Interesting how they used "(against disbelievers)" instead of against the infidel. Either way, you can't spin the hate. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-25-2002, 09:20 AM	#8
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	in·fi·del n. An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam. One who has no religious beliefs. One who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle. Isn't the idea of a translation to reflect the commonly understood language of the reader? The Arabic word isn't infidel, it's a word in another language that means infidel or disbeliever. Take your pick. It seems that folks view "authentic" as something that bin Laden would have written in English. How would he phrase it in English? What English words would he use? Well, it was written in Arabic and the translator is free to choose the proper literate, rather than literal, translation. Last edited by Nic Name; 11-25-2002 at 09:25 AM.

11-24-2002, 11:12 PM	#4
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I think they would...and I happen to like the Guardian. They're like the Washington Times of the left.

11-25-2002, 08:42 AM	#5
dave Guest Posts: n/a	bin Laden might have possibly laid down the idea, but there's no fucking way on God's Green Earth™ that he wrote every single bit of it. It simply makes use of too much good English to be a translation of his writing.

11-25-2002, 09:31 AM	#9
dave Guest Posts: n/a	No. What I'm saying is that I believe it's at the very least been embellished, and possibly created by English-speaking extremists (i.e., not bin Laden). From what I have read and heard of bin Laden, this doesn't seem to fit the same mold. There generally are some words that always make it through - like Griff said, infidel being one of them. I would have no trouble believing bin Laden laid the groundwork for it, but I personally think that it's been embellished. You've now added that the translator is free to choose - and if that's the case, then hey, it's been embellished. Now it's no longer exactly what bin Laden said - it's been changed. Look, you believe what you want. I'll be waiting for a literal translation of the original Arabic.

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