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Old 09-16-2015, 05:35 PM   #31
Clodfobble
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We did a play together in college, I was 18 and he was 20 or 21. We became friends, and after the cast party he gave me a ride home and effectively asked permission to kiss me. In my head, that made us exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend, because I never did the casual date thing. (I did the fuck buddy thing a couple times, but it was VERY clearly spelled out in those cases.) So within a day or two we were hanging out at his apartment, it became night, and I got naked. There was lead-up, obviously, but it was very much what I expected was supposed to happen next. He panicked, I assured him it was okay, we managed. A few nights later was the first time he lost it midway through the process, and frequency dropped radically from there. Everything else was fine, he wasn't my soulmate or anything but we had enough in common, spent most of our nights together. The first big red flag was when he told me flat out that he thought ponytails were unattractive, and tank tops were trashy, both of which I wore a lot. Later he admitted to having issues with my "past," to which my thought was, "dude, what little you know of my past is TAME, guess I won't be sharing any more of it..." And then I broke up with him awhile later.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:13 PM   #32
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did a play
gay

Oh please, the last musical i did was two months ago. But no, yeah, I was in the theater geek clique in college and simply every male was gay. Only me, Joe, and Bill were not gay. And Buddy, who ran lights.

And it being the early 80s, all those gay guys could not come out to save their lives.

Your gent was gay, or damaged goods, which do you think it was?
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:26 PM   #33
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Both, actually. His mother was devoutly religious, but only got into all that when he was old enough to remember the change in their lifestyle, so he hated it even more. He was a rebellious teen, did a fair amount of sneaking out, pot, and eventually ecstasy. Then when he was a senior in high school his parents broke the big secret that he was adopted, which he'd never known. That fucked him up pretty hard, though he never actually told me, an old friend of his from high school accidentally let it slip in front of me. I met his parents a couple times, they were a pain in the ass (muttered to themselves about how he was going to "have to spend a night in jail before he would learn..." that he couldn't just drive around with an expired registration sticker on his car,) but not abusive or anything. Just normal dumb Midwestern folks who didn't know what to do with their skinny, androgynous, artsy son.

He admitted to potentially being bisexual before we'd started dating, sometimes wore makeup (foundation) and spent way more time on his hair than I did. But I was cool with all that! Because I was a cool girl, who didn't judge, y'know? I was cool enough to date a guy who was bi, you bet I was. On the other hand, all those signs kind of make my aggressive sexuality at the time a little less forgiveable. I should have seen what was going on even if he denied it.

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Originally Posted by Undertoad
And it being the early 80s, all those gay guys could not come out to save their lives.
This was in 1999, in Austin. You could definitely be gay.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:40 PM   #34
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Well there you go, Y2K was looming over him, he thought he was gonna die and the pressure of having to make his last few fucks great ones was too much for him.

Case solved.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:45 PM   #35
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And then the 16 year old, at age 23 - typically that age difference would be super-creepy because the guy is a sexual predator, but here he's doing it because she's not a sexual threat to him. But it's not that you were a threat: you shouldn't feel bad, you were pressing him for a standard heterosexual response and he couldn't get there. You were helping him channel his way to whatever he is. Whatever that is.

AND, AND, you were equally cheated, by not getting any sort of response that would have generated closeness and moving to the next level in a relationship ~ he should feel bad about that!

It's Round two that really says something. Round one, the standard response could be oh man she is really aggressive and i'm not sure i'm ready for all that -- but Round two the standard response is oh man she is really aggressive and this is gonna be super awesome.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:01 PM   #36
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Of course, we'll need to see some late teen Clodfobble ponytail and tank top pics before we can rule that out completely.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:39 PM   #37
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:53 PM   #38
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That is absolutely a 100% accurate representation of me in junior high.
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Old 09-16-2015, 09:37 PM   #39
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...and eventually ecstasy.
But only six times.
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Old 09-16-2015, 09:50 PM   #40
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Why would you do such a thing?
I was 8
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Old 09-16-2015, 11:18 PM   #41
it
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Wise words, glatt.
Thank you, I appreciate the thought, and on that note... Is that a bad time to mention I disagree with what you are attempting to do here - not just you two you but the whole thread you...

Bear with me here:

I know I linked this in the past (That bit is so useful), but...

You know the incident Louie describes here:


I happen to very much agree with him: That friend while trying to support and empower and show how good of allies they make to the person in question by how strongly they side with them on anything... Is also giving horrible advice and reinforces a very distorted one-sided and narrow perspective...
And I find it hard to disagree that walking through life believing to yourself that you are so amazing that anyone who doesn't answer your text messages immediately is a piece of shit who isn't good enough for you... Is a pretty shitty way to live your life.
Now, it's possible that her friend truely believes that, she has anlyzed the situation thoroughly and this is the best hypothesis she was able to come up with... But it's more likely that she just tried making her friend feel better, both out of caring and because better is a lot more enjoyable to empathize with, and then tried finding the best way to rationalize that.

Almost everything in life can have a multitude of perspectives and it's very easy to pick the ones that reflect best on us, the one that tells the story we want to hear... Or in the case of trying to comfort a friend, the one we want to tell.
Underneath all those perspectives though, there is - IMO - a truth, otherwise known as The shit that actually happened, and a common characteristics of The shit that actually happened are that it doesn't exclude the bits that did not fit in the story, doesn't care about how it makes people feel (Even though feelings - events in people's skulls - can certainly be parts of The shit that actually happened), and doesn't need to hide or dodge elements that make it particularly uncomfortable.
In contrast, one thing indicative of a good story is that even though it doesn't actually contradict in the fact it describes opposed perspectives, their meaning and implications contradict, and yet the author will still view it as a contradiction to avoid, because what's under protection isn't a conclusion on reason, it is an intended meaning. Often the shift is not in the variables, but the focus.
To give my own case as an example... Even if I was a good soldier, it does not in itself contradict the plausible possibility that children died from that. Both statements have no trouble been true in the same universe, they just shift the focus to generate one meaning rather then the other. What I did was... Probably both. The same is true for clod's case but I am going to pick that open unless asked.

Just like that "the amazing college girl", I think going through life denying the harm you cause or even could have caused others and filtering it through whichever perspective best suits you, excluding that which is ugly or puts you in a bad light... Is a pretty shitty way to live your life.

I don't know when exactly in history did guilt and remorse became emotions people shouldn't feel, but I think once it's there, you can't show someone understanding by trying to strip away the guilt's legitimacy.
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:14 AM   #42
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There is a difference between realsing you have done something wrong and experiencing guilt or remorse for it - and carrying that guilt around with you into the future.

I see no point in carrying around guilt for past deeds, or regrets for things done or not done.

Guilt, regret, remorse - these things are useful in small doses. Realising something you did or failed to do had consequences, accepting your responsibility and learning from that experience is useful. Intermittently beating yourself up for something you did a decade ago is not useful.

There is also a difference between being kind to your younger self, and denying your younger self's wrongs. Recognising that you did what you did because of the entire surrounding context is useful. The you that you are now might not do that, if faced with the same choice today. Undoubtedly, that is because the you that you are today, has learned from the experiences of that time and others. The flipside to that, is that the you of that time had not yet learned those lessons. You cannot look back from your 30s and 40s to yourself at 18 and apply the person you are to the person you were.

This goes for all growth and development, but it is particularly acute I think, when looking back at teens and early 20s. It's so easy to forgive our 6 year old self their ignorance. We seem to struggle to be so kind to our teenage and young adult selves. But they are the ones that need the most understanding and forgiveness.
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Last edited by DanaC; 09-17-2015 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:02 AM   #43
xoxoxoBruce
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Thank you, I appreciate the thought, and on that note... Is that a bad time to mention I disagree with what you are attempting to do here - not just you two you but the whole thread you...
No, you disagree with what you imagine other people are attempting to do here. There's no way you can know the intent of others, unless they tell you. Even if their action fits what you consider the pattern for such and such behavior, that's not intent.

The intent of most people here, most of the time, is have a little fun, kill a little time and occasionally to avoid things of the lawn mowing/cat washing/diaper changing sort.
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:31 PM   #44
it
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No, you disagree with what you imagine other people are attempting to do here. There's no way you can know the intent of others, unless they tell you. Even if their action fits what you consider the pattern for such and such behavior, that's not intent.

The intent of most people here, most of the time, is have a little fun, kill a little time and occasionally to avoid things of the lawn mowing/cat washing/diaper changing sort.

I am not talking about what they are doing with the cellar in general. I meant specifically with the "it's not your fault" thing within this thread.

From what I've seen, people come here to joke around but also to talk about various shit in their lives from family members with cancer to troubles at the shop. So while it's true that people come here for a little fun and to kill a little time where everybody knows your other name *insert cheers theme song spoof*, there is also a very strong aspects of people here becoming each other's support networks. Which in itself is actually pretty cool - it takes quite a bit for a community to evolve into that IME.
Trust me when I say that's an achievement - I've seen other places where even someone talking about their mother's cancer would be used as a weapon against them in future arguments. There is some of that kind of thing here, but not much.

It's just a matter that sometimes the most obvious ways to provide support can have unfortunate implications.

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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
It's so easy to forgive our 6 year old self their ignorance. We seem to struggle to be so kind to our teenage and young adult selves. But they are the ones that need the most understanding and forgiveness.
...So if someone raped you or killed your loved ones or... Just insert some of the worst things you've experienced caused by another human being... and then years later you'd get to talk to them or confront them and bring it up... And they tell you, "well that's ok, I forgave myself"...

I don't know about you but I am not sure my ability to even imagine douchiness can come up with a higher level of it. This seems entirely contingent on the ability to avoid anyone you've ever hurt and create a bubble with which to continue your own life in which you can imagine on a daily basis that they don't exist.

Mind you, I don't think self flagellation is useful either, metaphorical or otherwise, in fact it can be just as much of a self-deception tool. I've known people who believe so strongly that through emotional self-flagellation they can resolve the problem because in their minds how bad they feel for doing something to someone else has to be worst then how bad it felt for the other to have it done to them, thus somehow "balancing it out". That is also IMO utter horseshit, and misses the point for the very same reason - it's not up to you.
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:55 PM   #45
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The one thing you absolutely cannot alter, is the past. You are human, and humans make mistakes, they make choices they regret and they hopefully learn from them.


If you told us that a few years ago you decided you wanted to see how it felt to rape or kill someone and so you did that - I would not be suggesting you set that aside and forgive yourself. That is not an error, or a mistake, that is a conscious and deliberate act of harm. But that is not what is being described in this thread.

A young soldier, making a rapid choice when the wrong choice either way could kill an innocent, or get himself or his comrades killed? I think that young soldier deserves forgiveness. Would I think that had my loved one been killed by him? Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to think I would.

We get one go around in this life, Trace, and the world is seldom kind.
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