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Old 05-05-2016, 11:47 AM   #16
John Sellers
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I have little respect for people's need to post their emotions. It provides me with nothing useful, helpful, or informative.
I guess that explains why you felt the need to explain the difference between emotion and logic where no such explanation was warranted.

Also, the fact that logic tells my emotions to never trust Bitcoin is valid. I'll stick to PayPal.
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:14 PM   #17
tw
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I guess that explains why you felt the need to explain the difference between emotion and logic where no such explanation was warranted.
Why is it not warranted? Do you have a similar conclusion? That is ambiguous because you did not say why.

Paypal is an amazing innovation.

I never understood why eBay sold Paypal. Apparently something is afoot in that transaction media. But to say what requires facts that are unknown.

Principles that are Bitcoin's foundation are innovative. But unproven. Underlying principles and Bitcoin's future explain a schism among Bitcoin insiders. Another fact that creates less trust in that transaction medium.

It does not help that a Bitcoin is about $440; not good currency for typical transactions that are necessary to build trust. And that a Bitcoin dropped in value from almost $1000 making it more like a derivative - less like a transaction medium.
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Old 05-05-2016, 07:27 PM   #18
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Anything that can be kept scarce can be trusted as a backing for a currency. Suggested backings include gold, increasingly difficult cryptographic keys, and the insolvency of the US Government. Out of those three, which is most likely to remain limited?

Trust in the currency itself is equal to the trust in its backing. The reason that dollars actually work is based on an entirely, 100% emotional faith, a misplaced belief that they will continue to be accepted as payment of tax revenues by future US Governments.

Keep in mind that most dollars, like most bitcoins, do not exist in ANY physical form. They're both just numbers on computerized ledgers. When the US Treasury pays dividends on its bills to the banks, they do not back trucks up with $100s. They press keys, and bits are exchanged over networks, and "money" goes into the banks.

It's 100% emotional. Logic and reason do not apply to the future. 1 does not equal 1 if 1 does not exist.

Good luck to us all
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:34 AM   #19
tw
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It's 100% emotional. Logic and reason do not apply to the future.
Taxes do not define integrity of a currency. Dollar is controlled / defined by a Federal Reserve. World's most stable currencies all have equivalent to a Federal Reserve.

None of what backs a dollar is emotional. Dollar is stable due to facts - what the economy does, actions by the Central Bank, well defined numbers, AND due to previous and statistical history that so many all over the world have experienced and learned from. Emotion only exists if one trusts the dollar only because someone is told (like a child) to trust a dollar.

Some foolishly (emotionally) assume a currency must be backed by gold. We know from history and underlying economic facts that currencies (and therefore economies) work best when the currency is not backed by some irrelevant reference such as gold. Otherwise gold coins minted by the Islamic state would have great demand and trust. In reality, the Islamic gold dinar is a poor transaction media due to an economy that defines it and people that created it.

In 1931, Britain disconnected gold from their pound. Integrity of that currency increased. Even an economic boom resulted. No emotions were involved. It works due to hard and well proven facts.

Integrity of a currency is defined by its Central Bank and by the economy that underpins it. Those facts are even measured quantitatively. Those facts define what happens in currency exchanges all over the world.

However many do not understand those facts. Many trust a dollar only because others have told them to do so. They are emotional. They have little understanding of what underpins a currency. Some have so little grasp of those facts as to even believe gold must underpin a currency - because their emotions tell them to believe that myth.

Integrity of international currencies are based in (and can be destroyed by) fundamental facts. Emotion exists among the naive AFTER fundamental concepts break down. Trust in currencies exists due to fundamental and logical facts - such as stability of an economy that underpins that currency and actions of a Central Bank that defines / maintains that currency. No emotion exists in facts, actions and numbers. Emotion only exists among those who fail to comprehend those facts, actions, and numbers.

Bitcoin has an underlying flaw. Its integrity is backed by a vague group that answers to no one. In its short life, it has worked quite well. But statistical proof necessary to establish it integrity, a 'Central Bank' concept that defines it, its ability to expand with economic growth, and what keeps its management honest does not yet exist. Trust is defined by facts; not emotion.

Last edited by tw; 05-06-2016 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:42 AM   #20
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In 1931, Britain disconnected gold from their pound. Integrity of that currency increased. Even an economic boom resulted. No emotions were involved. It works due to hard and well proven facts.
A boom resulted from emotion, facts are results seen only in retrospect.
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:13 AM   #21
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Taxes do not define integrity of a currency. Dollar is controlled / defined by a Federal Reserve. World's most stable currencies all have equivalent to a Federal Reserve.
Rrright, obviously; their role is to maintain the scarcity; but scarce things don't always have value. The dollar *actually* has value because its biggest user, by far, accepts it as a form of payment. That's what actually defines the dollar. If it stopped doing that, the currency would not hold as much value. Other people would have to broadly accept it as a form of payment, and why would they? Only if there was a valid form of exchange, dollars for some other thing, would it hold value. The Fed may choose to issue quatloons but that does not give quatloons any value!

What we've seen so far is that government guaranteeing its value is a stronger form of backing than the government offering to exchange bills for actual gold or silver. But what's weird is, that can change, and we have seen currencies devalue from weak government backing. We just have faith that it'll never happen to us, and it's that faith that ACTUALLY maintains the dollar's value.

If the US Gov instead accepted potatoes instead of dollars as a form of payment, potatoes would have great value... except that the scarcity can't be controlled, so the value would drop. Without scarcity, there is inflation, and the value of each individual potato drops. The Fed determines the scarcity of dollars but merely issuing dollars does not give them value.
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:25 AM   #22
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A boom resulted from emotion, facts are results seen only in retrospect.
Those who are emotional do not see and may even refuse to recognize how they are so easily manipulated by the fewer who actually understand relevant facts and numbers.

Of course, the emotional must deny this. Without learning facts, the emotional only have their emotions to work with. Fortunately those are not the people who define currencies.
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Old 05-06-2016, 12:00 PM   #23
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We just have faith that it'll never happen to us, and it's that faith that ACTUALLY makes us believe in the dollar's value.
Well proven history that demonstrates why the dollar is so stable. TARP was a perfect example. American central bankers told big banks, "You have eight hours to save the economy." How many emotional types saw that coming? None. People who learn facts and numbers (we all now know) were correct. What they did is why the American dollar is so stable and respected. Backed by people and an economy that uses facts (not emotions) to make decisions.

That is also why a Central Bank must be independent of the emotionally naive such as George Jr.

This last recession (that was almost a great depression) was created by a scarcity of equity. A massive and dangerous problem was solved by pumping $700 billion into the economy. Scarcity (in this case) almost destroyed economic activity (as it did in 1929). Also critical was where $700 billion was injected. Done so responsibly that we undid massive economic damage that started mostly about 2000.

A great depression averted by those who are not emotional - who made decisions from facts, numbers, and logic. That is why the dollar is trusted.

Emotion may have created those problems when people foolishly 'felt' Social Security should be in a stock market, commercial banks get into investment banking, sub-prime loans to create SIVs and CDOs even without open markets, that derivatives can make everyone richer, stock brokers promoted as informed investors, golden parachutes and other massive payments to top executives, 'buy American', and spending almost $3 trillion on Mission Accomplished. Stupidity was created by the emotional who also believed an emotional myth called trickle down economics.

The emotional create problems. Stable currencies exist when the emotional are disempowered. Stability of the American dollar is found in so many companies that do not exist for profits - and therefore have profits. And by the educated and logical who control, protect, and define that transactional medium.

The emotional and naive created a gold Dinar. Using their emotions, that Dinar should be a world's most stable currency. It is not because facts and numbers, necessary to have a trusted Dinar, do not exist. These people are so emotional as to even claim that banks create evil. Emotion does not define a stable currency. Emotion can undermine a currency. Facts, numbers, logic, statistical history, and educated people make possible a stable currency.
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Old 05-06-2016, 03:45 PM   #24
xoxoxoBruce
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Those who are emotional do not see and may even refuse to recognize how they are so easily manipulated by the fewer who actually understand relevant facts and numbers.

Of course, the emotional must deny this. Without learning facts, the emotional only have their emotions to work with. Fortunately those are not the people who define currencies.
You Sir, are the King, the Emperor, the God, of circular logic.
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:32 PM   #25
John Sellers
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You Sir, are the King, the Emperor, the God, of circular logic.
#bazinga?
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:26 PM   #26
tw
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You Sir, are the King, the Emperor, the God, of circular logic.
Rather than learn what was stated, you have jumped to an emotional denial, with ridicule, to waste bandwidth. Impossible for you to understand once emotions assume conclusions. Third grade insults (so much like Donald Trump) then cause other third graders to agree.

Would you reflect and then return to logical deliberation? Unfortunately that word and what must be done is difficult for a third grader.

An actual adult would have demonstrated why he was confused and asked for clarification. Today, acting like Trump or Cruz is fashionable.

Demeaning others makes one popular. Just ask Hitler - since I read elsewhere here that he may be reincarnated. Would he also love your cheapshots?

Topic is Bitcion. Unfortunately that is so too complicated that some only want to post their emotions.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:57 PM   #27
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Bit coins were doomed from the start: they don't have green backs.
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Old 05-07-2016, 12:13 AM   #28
xoxoxoBruce
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Rather than learn what was stated, you have jumped to an emotional denial, with ridicule, to waste bandwidth. Impossible for you to understand once emotions assume conclusions. Third grade insults (so much like Donald Trump) then cause other third graders to agree.
Yes dear.
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Old 05-07-2016, 02:15 AM   #29
John Sellers
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For someone who has little respect for other people's need to express their emotions, you sure do spend a fuckload of time ranting about it. Talk about your wasted bandwidth.

You're a hypocrite.
Agreed. I am starting to wonder if TW respects his/her own emotions.

Emotions can often be useful. They reside in us, all the time, helping us to navigate throughout our daily lives, informing us about how to experience safety, acceptance, connection, contribution—all very basic needs of human beings of any age. When we’re emotionally blocked, we’re more likely to feel distance from ourselves and others and disempowered. Giving our emotions quality attention supports us in experiencing choice of new action which lead to breakthroughs and fulfillment.

As Robert Henri (1865-1929) said "Cherish your own emotions and never undervalue them."

Now, back to the main topic since apparently TW can't handle thread drift either.

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Old 05-09-2016, 11:52 PM   #30
tw
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Emotions can often be useful. They reside in us, all the time, helping us to navigate throughout our daily lives, informing us about how to experience safety, acceptance, connection, contribution—all very basic needs of human beings of any age.
Emotions should never run our lives. Process of becoming an adult is to use and control emotions as a tool. A tool used by the adult (logical) mind. Not as something to justify actions or make decisions.

High atop a building, one can have fear. A child entertains that fear - may scream or panic. An adult knows that fear is the subconscious mind reminding him to take extra care. A tool. One never entertains that fear. One uses that emotion to make a definite, careful, and logical decision.

A perfect example of adults acting like children is in N Korea. A BBC producer, reporter, and cameraman were held for eight hours in extensive questioning. Then deported. Accused of insulting "Dear Leader". Another example of adults acting on their emotions - not thinking logically like adults. Adult who make decisions based upon emotions are why N Korea is so dangerous. Emotions must never be justification for actions.

Hitler was another perfect example. He was driven by an emotion called ego. His ego needed him to annex or conquer other nations (ie Czechoslovakia, Poland). All for the greater glory of his ego and other emotions. The purpose of life (as understood by an adult mind) was irrelevant to his life ambition. Another example of why adults who are still children can be problematic.
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